How to sow Arakawa maple seeds from 2019?

[BonsaiNaga13]

Last year I ordered some fresh arakawa seeds from Sheffields, stored them in the fridge until i was ready to plant them, and had some seeds sprout on warm days during the winter. Only 3 from that batch survived(squirrel attacks mostly)and one already is displaying rough bark. 3 of the ones that died had rough bark already also so I decided to have another go this season but missed the small window for fresh seeds. Since I've heard that maple seeds are good for a few years and heard good things about Sheffields seed storage and viability plus good experiences with them in the past I ordered some dry seeds from 2019. The seeds say warm stratify for 120 days followed by cold for 120 days. I'm wondering if anyone with experience with 1 year old maple seeds can elaborate. How warm exactly, heat mat warmth or just room temperature and is this necessary at all? Like I said I had some seedlings sprout last year unintentionally during winter after a month in the fridge and maybe a month and a half outside, the rest sprouted throughout spring. I ordered 10 grams of seed and I'm in my mid 20's so I got time to grow these babies out just need some expertise from some bonsai veterans. Thanks in advance.

 

[garywood]

13, older seeds can be tough to get good percentages. the warm stratifying is important! Soak the seeds at least 24hr and put in a container with moist (not wet) media. I use white orchid moss but sand, peat moss or any media that can keep a consistent moisture will work. Place in cabinet, drawer or closet that's dark with room temperature for 60-90 days. take out and put in fridge for 60-90 days and watch for root movement and then plant..

 

[GreatLakesBrad]

Too funny, I got some from the same batch as you after not being able to find fresh seeds. They are in peat soil/containers inside of plastic bags at 70 degrees. I’m planning to do 100 warm and 100 cold stratification and see what happens in spring.

So Arakawa is a legit species then? From seed? Versus highly variable normal Acer palmatum ?

 

[BonsaiNaga13]

Too funny, I got some from the same batch as you after not being able to find fresh seeds. They are in peat soil/containers inside of plastic bags at 70 degrees. I’m planning to do 100 warm and 100 cold stratification and see what happens in spring.

So Arakawa is a legit species then? From seed? Versus highly variable normal Acer palmatum ?

I've heard it argued that the seeds aren't a cultivar still because they're not true to parent but if they display the parent trees rough bark they're still rough bark acer palmatum weather ya call em arakawa or not
I've had maple seeds rot in the fridge and had way better success from just planting outside in protected pots. I'm using bout 50/50 peat and perlite. Haven't counted my seeds yet but I may experiment too just got mine in today. This'll mark my 3rd year growing from seed

 

[BonsaiNaga13]

13, older seeds can be tough to get good percentages. the warm stratifying is important! Soak the seeds at least 24hr and put in a container with moist (not wet) media. I use white orchid moss but sand, peat moss or any media that can keep a consistent moisture will work. Place in cabinet, drawer or closet that's dark with room temperature for 60-90 days. take out and put in fridge for 60-90 days and watch for root movement and then plant..

I bought 10 grams of seed for the same as 2 packs of fresh seed the year prior so as long as i get more than 3 sprouts I'm happy lol. I'm using a peat and perlite mix and I think I'm gunna leave em to grow in the container for the first season then separate. Seen Peter chan have good results that way and my regular acer palmatum I started this year grew better that way than the ones I separated.

 

[garywood]

I bought 10 grams of seed for the same as 2 packs of fresh seed the year prior so as long as i get more than 3 sprouts I'm happy lol. I'm using a peat and perlite mix and I think I'm gunna leave em to grow in the container for the first season then separate. Seen Peter chan have good results that way and my regular acer palmatum I started this year grew better that way than the ones I separated.

13, by all means, do what you've had success with. Field Capacity is a term that separates moist from wet media. When preparing the media for stratifying take a handful and squeeze it tightly. The goal is to have 1 or 2 drops of water come out.. More is too wet and subject to rot. Less possibly not enough for germination.

 

[BonsaiNaga13]

Of my 3 arakawa seedlings from this spring that I have left this is the one that already shows rough bark characteristics. If ya look closely maybe you can see.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

"Arakawa' is a cultivar of Japanese maple. It is Acer palmatum. It is not a separate species. Prior to 1970, Japanese horticulture did not follow the same rules as European-American horticulture. In the USA-EU hort, a cultivar name in single quotes refers to a single clone, a single seedling, of a species. For example Acer palmatum 'Bloodgood' refers to a single seedling of Japanese maple. It was propagated by grafting and meristematic tissue culture to produce literally millions of plants, but they are all genetically identical, they came all from a single seed.

Prior to 1970, Japanese horticulture did not follow this naming convention. If a group of seedlings all happened to have the same important traits, they would often get the same name. For example dwarf flowering quince of genus Chaenomeles, there are a group of clones from a region that as they age beyond 25 years, develop corky bark. These cork bark varieties got the name 'Chojubai'. The best small handful were propagated, but this is the reason that there are 'Chojubai' with scarlet orange flowers, there are clones with much redder flowers, there are a few clones that produce cork bark somewhat younger than the others. There is even a white flowered 'Chojubai'. Since 1970 Japan has adopted the EU-USA naming conventions. Now a days you can buy 'Chojubai Red', Chojubai White', and so on.

Seedlings from 'Arakawa' may or may not have the salient feature of 'Arakawa' which is the cork bark, or wart bark. Since it takes 10 to 25 years for this trait to develop, you will not know with seedlings. Modern naming conventions require that any seedling from 'Arakawa' must be given a unique name. It is not legitimate to call a seedling 'Arakawa' as being from seed by definition means the genetics have been resorted. Only asexually propagated cuttings, air layers and grafts from a 'Arakawa' with documented provenance may be legitimately call 'Arakawa'.

Seedlings from 'Arakawa' can be given unique names. and the names can reference the traits it has retained, but it can not be called 'Arakawa'.

That said, The Oregon, USA based breeder of Japanese Maples, Talon Buchholz has a wonderful blog, where he discusses all things maple and conifer for the landscape. (not bonsai) Talon Buchholz raises thousands of japanese maples from seed, and is the originator of quite a number of popular JM, including 'Purple Ghost' and others.

Flora Wonder Blog

florawonder.blogspot.com

So using Talon Buchholz as a reference, it is very much worth while planting maples from seed, and if you get a good one, propagating it and registering a name for it.

 

[BonsaiNaga13]

Yeah I know arakawa is a cultivar I mentioned that earlier in the thread I just titled the thread arakawa cuz that's what the parent tree was but very informative for any inquisitive minds that come across the thread. I'm just calling the seedlings that show characteristics rough bark acer palmatum for now. I know they say they take years to show if they have the rough bark but quite a few of my seedlings had rougher textured bark than any of my regular AP seeds already.
This should prove an interesting study none the less.

"Arakawa' is a cultivar of Japanese maple. It is Acer palmatum. It is not a separate species. Prior to 1970, Japanese horticulture did not follow the same rules as European-American horticulture. In the USA-EU hort, a cultivar name in single quotes refers to a single clone, a single seedling, of a species. For example Acer palmatum 'Bloodgood' refers to a single seedling of Japanese maple. It was propagated by grafting and meristematic tissue culture to produce literally millions of plants, but they are all genetically identical, they came all from a single seed.

Prior to 1970, Japanese horticulture did not follow this naming convention. If a group of seedlings all happened to have the same important traits, they would often get the same name. For example dwarf flowering quince of genus Chaenomeles, there are a group of clones from a region that as they age beyond 25 years, develop corky bark. These cork bark varieties got the name 'Chojubai'. The best small handful were propagated, but this is the reason that there are 'Chojubai' with scarlet orange flowers, there are clones with much redder flowers, there are a few clones that produce cork bark somewhat younger than the others. There is even a white flowered 'Chojubai'. Since 1970 Japan has adopted the EU-USA naming conventions. Now a days you can buy 'Chojubai Red', Chojubai White', and so on.

Seedlings from 'Arakawa' may or may not have the salient feature of 'Arakawa' which is the cork bark, or wart bark. Since it takes 10 to 25 years for this trait to develop, you will not know with seedlings. Modern naming conventions require that any seedling from 'Arakawa' must be given a unique name. It is not legitimate to call a seedling 'Arakawa' as being from seed by definition means the genetics have been resorted. Only asexually propagated cuttings, air layers and grafts from a 'Arakawa' with documented provenance may be legitimately call 'Arakawa'.

Seedlings from 'Arakawa' can be given unique names. and the names can reference the traits it has retained, but it can not be called 'Arakawa'.

That said, The Oregon, USA based breeder of Japanese Maples, Talon Buchholz has a wonderful blog, where he discusses all things maple and conifer for the landscape. (not bonsai) Talon Buchholz raises thousands of japanese maples from seed, and is the originator of quite a number of popular JM, including 'Purple Ghost' and others.

Flora Wonder Blog

florawonder.blogspot.com

So using Talon Buchholz as a reference, it is very much worth while planting maples from seed, and if you get a good one, propagating it and registering a name for it.

 

[BonsaiNaga13]

So I sowed these around the 19th - 20th and left them in a safe place to warm stratify and was looking to make sure things weren't too wet and I see 3 already sprouting

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

You can prick out the sprouts, transplant to pots and run them under lights for the winter, then outdoor for the summer and on to a normal maple schedule. Or you can toss them all in the refrigerator when its time to start the cold cycle. Most of the time, the already sprouted seedlings will just sit dormant in the refrigerator waiting for spring. Occasionally sprouted seedlings might rot, but most of the time they do not. Its up to you. If you have a lights set up, go ahead and prick out the sprouts.

Not all the seed reads the directions, some will sprout right away regardless of whether they got the warm stratification or not. It is a probability thing. Plant enough and all possible variations will show up. The hormone controls for germination are not "perfect", some get less inhibition than others.

 

[BonsaiNaga13]

You can prick out the sprouts, transplant to pots and run them under lights for the winter, then outdoor for the summer and on to a normal maple schedule. Or you can toss them all in the refrigerator when its time to start the cold cycle. Most of the time, the already sprouted seedlings will just sit dormant in the refrigerator waiting for spring. Occasionally sprouted seedlings might rot, but most of the time they do not. Its up to you. If you have a lights set up, go ahead and prick out the sprouts.

Not all the seed reads the directions, some will sprout right away regardless of whether they got the warm stratification or not. It is a probability thing. Plant enough and all possible variations will show up. The hormone controls for germination are not "perfect", some get less inhibition than others.

I'm gonna put them in a sunny window and move em outside come spring. The rest I planned on cold stratifying outside cuz these would take WAY too much fridge space. My first year doing maples I got really anxious and kept looking for shortcuts. The ones that did sprout indoors I grew under a lamp then a sunny window and they thrived untill a squirrel attack came late autumn. Thanks for always sharing your immense horticultural knowledge

 

[Arlithrien]

I bought Arakawa seeds from the same Sheffields batch last year and had great luck with them. I personally would not trust dry seeds. I bought seeds off ebay as well, which are infamous for being dry and not germinating. None of them germinated out of nearly a hundred. Meanwhile my sheffields fresh seeds had a high germination rate, nearly 100% for arakawa.

Can you post a picture of your early bark with better lighting/focus? its all very gray and hard to distinguish where the bark pattern is.

Here are two of the 7 or so of mine, the one on the left is my most vigorous, base is thick as a chopstick and maybe 2.5 feet long in it's first growing season. The one next to it is short and has broad leaves, looks kinda like a full moon maple.

I have a third one that I believe is showing signs of early rough bark, and will post pictures tomorrow.

 

[BonsaiNaga13]

I bought Arakawa seeds from the same Sheffields batch last year and had great luck with them. I personally would not trust dry seeds. I bought seeds off ebay as well, which are infamous for being dry and not germinating. None of them germinated out of nearly a hundred. Meanwhile my sheffields fresh seeds had a high germination rate, nearly 100% for arakawa.

Can you post a picture of your early bark with better lighting/focus? its all very gray and hard to distinguish where the bark pattern is.

Here are two of the 7 or so of mine, the one on the left is my most vigorous, base is thick as a chopstick and maybe 2.5 feet long in it's first growing season. The one next to it is short and has broad leaves, looks kinda like a full moon maple.

I have a third one that I believe is showing signs of early rough bark, and will post pictures tomorrow.

View attachment 343009
View attachment 343011

I already got 8 sprouts so I'm confident in this batch, sorry but that's as good as my camera gets. I think I recall someone say sheffields cold stores their dry seeds so that might explain the early risers here. All mine previously had palmate leaves well see about this current batch soon enough

 

[BonsaiNaga13]

Update
It appears majority of the seeds either have or will sprout indoors and the warm stratification wasn't needed. Im not even 30 days into the recommended 180 days warm stratification so for the sake of those seedlings I'm gunna ignore the 180 day cold stratification recommendation. I had some leftover seeds I tossed back in the fridge that I'll sow in spring and I have the other seedlings under a lamp and a few in a sunny window as previously stated.

 

[leatherback]

I have a third one that I believe is showing signs of early rough bark,

If indeed you have one that barks up in year 2 of existence, be carefull with it. You might have one to propagate

 

[dwed123]

I bought Arakawa seeds from the same Sheffields batch last year and had great luck with them. I personally would not trust dry seeds. I bought seeds off ebay as well, which are infamous for being dry and not germinating. None of them germinated out of nearly a hundred. Meanwhile my sheffields fresh seeds had a high germination rate, nearly 100% for arakawa.

Can you post a picture of your early bark with better lighting/focus? its all very gray and hard to distinguish where the bark pattern is.

Here are two of the 7 or so of mine, the one on the left is my most vigorous, base is thick as a chopstick and maybe 2.5 feet long in it's first growing season. The one next to it is short and has broad leaves, looks kinda like a full moon maple.

I have a third one that I believe is showing signs of early rough bark, and will post pictures tomorrow.

View attachment 343009
View attachment 343011

Hi, just read this post. Very interesting. How have these developed? Bark continued to develop?

 

[BonsaiNaga13]

Hi, just read this post. Very interesting. How have these developed? Bark continued to develop?

They all died over winter but last week I found some nishikigawa seeds I picked right off the tree myself soo next round should be more interesting? Nishikigawa has smaller leaves and tighter internodes, maybe I'll get some rough bark seedlings as well.

 

[dwed123]

They all died over winter but last week I found some nishikigawa seeds I picked right off the tree myself soo next round should be more interesting? Nishikigawa has smaller leaves and tighter internodes, maybe I'll get some rough bark seedlings as well.

Oh wow. Sorry to hear they didn’t make it. Did you protect them over the winter?

Good news re Nishiki Gawa…be great to hear how you get on.

I am waiting for some fresh Arakawa seeds to arrive so will see what happens with those.

 

[BonsaiNaga13]

Nope, don't have a lot of options but I've managed to keep some regular acer palmatum seedlings alive for 2 years so im trying again and been looking at cold frames. Don't trust burying the pots cuz vermin