How's this nebari?

Redwood Ryan

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Hey all,



I thought I would get peoples opinions here as well as some other sites on the quality of the nebari on this Trident I bought today. I only paid $40, so it won't be too heartbreaking if you all say it's a P.O.S. What do you think?







Good? Bad? Comments?
 

Brian Van Fleet

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This side has potential...how about the other side?
 

Redwood Ryan

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This side has potential...how about the other side?


That is where the problem is. The nebari is virtually non-existent on that side:





I know thread grafting is an option, but is it really necessary? Could I just have one sided nebari and make that the front? Or is nebari that goes all the way around absolutely needed?
 

garywood

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Ryan, you have a very good start for the money! The one problem I see is that it is not planted deep enough. Once the larger roots are exposed, the ability to issue new roots at the base is diminished and only the existing roots enlarge. A hundred small roots is much better than ten large roots in the development stage. When you repot, cut the strong side roots very hard and every thing under the bole completely flat while not cutting the weaker roots on the weak side as hard.
Wood
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_hsamskzRxzk/TMl8lFqfbII/AAAAAAAAACg/r9q4FJRDpnE/s1600/IMG_0054.JPG
 

Brian Van Fleet

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Ryan, you have a very good start for the money! The one problem I see is that it is not planted deep enough. Once the larger roots are exposed, the ability to issue new roots at the base is diminished and only the existing roots enlarge. A hundred small roots is much better than ten large roots in the development stage. When you repot, cut the strong side roots very hard and every thing under the bole completely flat while not cutting the weaker roots on the weak side as hard.
Wood
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_hsamskzRxzk/TMl8lFqfbII/AAAAAAAAACg/r9q4FJRDpnE/s1600/IMG_0054.JPG

Showoff! Hope you're well buddy!
 

Redwood Ryan

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Ryan, you have a very good start for the money! The one problem I see is that it is not planted deep enough. Once the larger roots are exposed, the ability to issue new roots at the base is diminished and only the existing roots enlarge. A hundred small roots is much better than ten large roots in the development stage. When you repot, cut the strong side roots very hard and every thing under the bole completely flat while not cutting the weaker roots on the weak side as hard.
Wood
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_hsamskzRxzk/TMl8lFqfbII/AAAAAAAAACg/r9q4FJRDpnE/s1600/IMG_0054.JPG

Thanks Gary! Very, very nice roots on that! How well do these tolerate root pruning?


Also, if I plan on taking this tree way back, I think I'll air layer the top of the tree instead of wasting the 9.5 feet of the upper trunk.
 

discusmike

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Can you show a pic of the whole tree?Good start on the roots,are you thinking of chopping it and letting it get some taper in the ground?Maybe try a tile on the underside.
 

Redwood Ryan

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Can you show a pic of the whole tree?Good start on the roots,are you thinking of chopping it and letting it get some taper in the ground?Maybe try a tile on the underside.

The only reason I didn't show the full tree is because there's nothing to it. Just a 10 foot tall stock tree:



Instead of chopping I'll air layer it down low, and I'll probably plant it in a grow box instead of the ground, I haven't really the room. The only place I could plant it is a swamp, and it would hate that. I plan on creating a smaller sized Trident, as I'm always amazed when I see those.
 

garywood

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Ryan, whatever you decide to do just remember that without setting priorities both options will be slowed. The tree needs foliar growth for air-layer to issue maximum roots or building a new base. A faster option for two trees might be to cut the top 1/4 off and build roots with the growth that will pop below the cut and build a "new" tree with the top and layer it off after it's semi-trained. Depending on your experience with rootwork and after care, Tridents can and need extensive root reduction inorder to build nice a nice base. The tree needs to be stabilized after rootwork (no movement or wiggle of the trunk) and planted deep with even a small amount of shredded moss on top of the soil around the base.
Wood
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_hsamskzRxzk/TM9Ukb2r0lI/AAAAAAAAADA/32upELbBQ4o/s1600/IMG_0024.JPG
 

Redwood Ryan

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Ryan, whatever you decide to do just remember that without setting priorities both options will be slowed. The tree needs foliar growth for air-layer to issue maximum roots or building a new base. A faster option for two trees might be to cut the top 1/4 off and build roots with the growth that will pop below the cut and build a "new" tree with the top and layer it off after it's semi-trained. Depending on your experience with rootwork and after care, Tridents can and need extensive root reduction inorder to build nice a nice base. The tree needs to be stabilized after rootwork (no movement or wiggle of the trunk) and planted deep with even a small amount of shredded moss on top of the soil around the base.
Wood
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_hsamskzRxzk/TM9Ukb2r0lI/AAAAAAAAADA/32upELbBQ4o/s1600/IMG_0024.JPG

Great advice Gary! So you're suggesting I cut some of the top away to get buds to pop down low, then after the roots are built I air layer? That's a good idea. But if I air layered wouldn't that still cause buds to pop down lower that could be used to build a better base?
 

garywood

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Ryan, yes and no. It's a question of priorities for me but it's your tree. The first priority to me is the base. That will be the best tree in the shortest time. To get the maximum root growth it needs lots of foliage but there is too much now for the extensive work the tree needs. When doing extensive rootwork a tree doesn't need to try and produce roots and shoots at the same time, neither does well. If you layer after rootwork there is diminished water intake capacity and the layer suffers and if it does not fail the best would be a weak root system. There are many ways you can do what you want, I try and take a systematic approach which allows the physiology to work for the fastest results that are the priorities.
Wood
 

Redwood Ryan

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Ryan, yes and no. It's a question of priorities for me but it's your tree. The first priority to me is the base. That will be the best tree in the shortest time. To get the maximum root growth it needs lots of foliage but there is too much now for the extensive work the tree needs. When doing extensive rootwork a tree doesn't need to try and produce roots and shoots at the same time, neither does well. If you layer after rootwork there is diminished water intake capacity and the layer suffers and if it does not fail the best would be a weak root system. There are many ways you can do what you want, I try and take a systematic approach which allows the physiology to work for the fastest results that are the priorities.
Wood


Very good, you know a lot more about maples than I probably ever will so I'll take your word. Instead of chopping off 1/4 could I go a bit more and say, chop a little above where the foliage ends and the long boring trunk begins?

Also, if I chop it in the winter, will the result of that chop cause new buds down lower to pop in the spring along with the other buds? Or would that require another chop during mid-spring or so?
 

mcpesq817

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Also, if I plan on taking this tree way back, I think I'll air layer the top of the tree instead of wasting the 9.5 feet of the upper trunk.

If there's not too much to the top, I wouldn't bother airlayering it.
 

garywood

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Ryan, whatever you choose to do. If you do rootwork, leave some existing branches. Half would be fine. After rootwork there should be no cutting the first year. This is not a bonsai. you are preparing it to be a bonsai. The next year, if an appropriate leader is not there then cut lower or use the existing low branch that's already there. If you choose, you "could" cut it down to a stub and put it in a bonsai pot at potting season but the development into a "good" bonsai is compromised. Cutting can be done anytime between leaf fall and bud movement. You can do it anytime but that time frame gives maximum growth and starch storage this year and latent bud stimulation for next year. Set your priorities and go with it. The base can be a very good tree with a few years of prep. Have fun.
Wood
 

Redwood Ryan

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If there's not too much to the top, I wouldn't bother airlayering it.

There's not much to the top, but I just feel like it's such a waste to get rid of 9.5 feet of tree.

Ryan, whatever you choose to do. If you do rootwork, leave some existing branches. Half would be fine. After rootwork there should be no cutting the first year. This is not a bonsai. you are preparing it to be a bonsai. The next year, if an appropriate leader is not there then cut lower or use the existing low branch that's already there. If you choose, you "could" cut it down to a stub and put it in a bonsai pot at potting season but the development into a "good" bonsai is compromised. Cutting can be done anytime between leaf fall and bud movement. You can do it anytime but that time frame gives maximum growth and starch storage this year and latent bud stimulation for next year. Set your priorities and go with it. The base can be a very good tree with a few years of prep. Have fun.
Wood

Thanks again Gary. I think what I really want to do first is reduce the height. Then, let it grow wild for a bit and work the roots. This guy is a long way from a bonsai pot.
 

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