Humic Acid - what strength, how often?

JudyB

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Just got my first humic acid, and they list different strength mixtures for different purposes. Of course, none are for bonsai....
The choices are hand feeding, hydroponic, and transplants.

I'm wondering which is best as a guideline, and how often I should use this. It recommends once a month.

Also should I fertilize at the same time, or before, or after???

Thanks!
 

fore

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Judy, I have a bottle of Humic Acid in my Amazon cart waiting for me to bite the bullet. But I read how Smoke? or Grouper?...someone very experienced using it with great affect. If I recall correctly, they only used it once in the spring. I'd love to hear how wrong I am lol
 

Dav4

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Judy, I have a bottle of Humic Acid in my Amazon cart waiting for me to bite the bullet. But I read how Smoke? or Grouper?...someone very experienced using it with great affect. If I recall correctly, they only used it once in the spring. I'd love to hear how wrong I am lol
I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure Al uses a small amount weekly with each fertilizing. That's what I got out of the discussions here from several years ago. I basically take a capful or two and mix it in with my full strength miracle gro/fish emulsion in a 2gal watering can, which I apply every 7-10 days.

Dave
 

JudyB

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Thanks, I did a teaspoon per gallon, with my liquid fert. I'll start off with twice a month.... See how it goes.
Stepping up my fert program this year all around, so I'm hoping for noticeable results.
 

grouper52

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I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure Al uses a small amount weekly with each fertilizing. That's what I got out of the discussions here from several years ago. I basically take a capful or two and mix it in with my full strength miracle gro/fish emulsion in a 2gal watering can, which I apply every 7-10 days.

Dave

Al's probably more meticulous than I am, and probably needs to be given his climate, but I just put about the amount you do when I fertilize as well. It's not as important if you use an organic soil mix, which I do not, so I like to use it.

The preparations I've gotten it in seem to be of irregular strength and origin, so I think it's not always as exact a thing as standard fertilizers, and, except for the expense, it seems there is very little downside if one uses a bit too much, so I just sort of "dump a bit in" depending on my whim.

Basically, I think following the directions for houseplants and such would probably be a good enough ball park estimate. Ultimately, of course, pay attention to how your trees respond to it, but that will take a while to assess, and will depend a a whole slew of variables. Not an exact science. Exactly how much prime rib do you need in your diet? - it's that sort of thing, IMO.
 

JudyB

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That IS a good question, how much prime rib do you need in your diet? ;)

I'm just hoping to see better results than the past years given that I'm stepping up in a number of different ways. Since I'm almost all non-organic, I think I was probably underfeeding.
 

fore

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Great information Grouper52 and Dav4. What exactly am I looking for when using this? For example, faster growth, better root development...?
 

grouper52

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There's a lengthy thread somewhere on BNut or BSite, from years ago when the Great Soil Wars were really raging, where some expert was going around the country giving lectures to clubs to convince them that Turface would kill their trees. He had some scientifically based theories as to why that was so, but he really didn't know how a scientist thinks about such things. I pointed this out to the combatants on the thread with a long rant that pointed out the ridiculous difficulty for bonsai folks to really know - with any scientific certainty - anything about such matters. Use of Humic Acid (and lots of other stuff) falls into that category.

What I can say is that it seems like it ought to be good for our trees based on what I've read, and based on my general impression that it looks and smells like I would like it if I was a tree. With no more knowledge than that, and with a wish and a prayer, I started throwing it into my mix with SuperThrive and HB-101 and kelp emulsion and anything else I thought might help, and hoped for the best. My trees seem to do OK in spite of me and in spite of it all, but I can't honestly say with any great certainty that any of this stuff is doing anything more than draining my discretionary income in exchange for some strange sort of horticultural guilty pleasure.
 

Smoke

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For humic acid to really do its job a few things need to be present.

First you have to have a soil with low cation exchange.

You have to have large particle sizes.

...and slow and steady for maximum effect.

What constitutes a soil with low cation exchange. Clay! Akadama ranks right up there with one of the lowest cation exchanges known. Why is it good? Because it is Volcanic in origen. During the carboneferous period 350 million years ago when Carbon Dioxide had a huge hold on the earths atmosphere, plants grew to enormous size. as these plant layers were smashed down they created huge beds of humates that today are known as leonardite, or lignate coal (soft coal) as well as oil depostits. Many of these layers were covered over with huge beds of lava that mixed with humates and made the layers we dig up today known as akadama. It is because of this almost organic infusion of clay and humates that makes akadama a soil that is indeed great for bonsai. While I will concede that freeze thaw cycles would be very bad for a soft soil component such as this, for those that can afford it and get it, it is worth the extra price and effort. Your choice.

Particle size is another consideration. Most people in the USA use soil with a small particle size. Soil like haydite, oil dry, ditamatious earth, turface and even akadama is too small for proper air exchange in the roots. Proper soil size should be about 8-10 mm. Even in my shohin I will use about 8 mm soil particle with a top layer on for asthetics. I have actually cut panty hose in the size of the pot and placed 1-2 mm on top for a show only to remove it later. All particles must be sifted as no dust should be in the pot. Humic acid will alter the cation charge of the particles and make them usefull in the attraction of fertlizer ions. Clay type soils and lava will actually repel fertilizer and with fast draining inorganic soils, fertilizers will be simply washed thru. This attraction does not happen over night. This takes a good six months to get the soil holding fertilizer ready for the plant to take up. Trees do not stop growing, they will feed and grow to great proportions if the tree can get nutrients and water in a balanced system. Humic acid just providea the catalyst for this to happen. Humic acid is not a fertilizer and a good fertilizer regimen has to be established in conjunction with the application of humates.

When I started 7 years ago I used straight humic acid as leonardite on top of the soil. My stuff at the time was 85 percent humin acid. I nearly burned up some trees. Now I use a fertilizer enhanced with humic acid at 5 percent bi-weekly, as well as miricle gro shake and feed ( the green pellets in my photo's.). I do not start the humic acid untill April 1, but continue all the way to November. I fertilize year round.

The most noticable effect for me has been better buds in spring, more abundent growth in spring, faster wood production and nearly.....NEARLY no leaf burn of maples all the way thru the year. October is still a hard month for me and just before I start to get leaf color they will burn up and look terrible. Then I get color on burned up leaves.


Slow and steady. Use small amounts more often. If a "little is good more is better" is not the way to go.

Some people use conditioner on their hair and some do not. I have seen healthy hair and what proper hair products can do for a head of great hair. Use humates if you wish, I have seen a difference, but some say it makes no difference. Maybe they just wern't using it correctly. It took me 7 years and a few lost trees to figure out what worked. Everyone will have to experiment on thier own trees due to soil ingredients, particle size availability and watering schedule.
 

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Smoke

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BTW...

Anyone notice where my fertilizer is?
 

fore

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There's a lengthy thread somewhere on BNut or BSite, from years ago when the Great Soil Wars were really raging, where some expert was going around the country giving lectures to clubs to convince them that Turface would kill their trees. He had some scientifically based theories as to why that was so, but he really didn't know how a scientist thinks about such things. I pointed this out to the combatants on the thread with a long rant that pointed out the ridiculous difficulty for bonsai folks to really know - with any scientific certainty - anything about such matters. Use of Humic Acid (and lots of other stuff) falls into that category.

What I can say is that it seems like it ought to be good for our trees based on what I've read, and based on my general impression that it looks and smells like I would like it if I was a tree. With no more knowledge than that, and with a wish and a prayer, I started throwing it into my mix with SuperThrive and HB-101 and kelp emulsion and anything else I thought might help, and hoped for the best. My trees seem to do OK in spite of me and in spite of it all, but I can't honestly say with any great certainty that any of this stuff is doing anything more than draining my discretionary income in exchange for some strange sort of horticultural guilty pleasure.

Very Funny story! And I appreciate the honesty ;)
 

JudyB

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Thank you Smoke and G52, this is good information to have in my wallet.
I got a 8% solution, and went with a teaspoon per gallon. My plan is for every other week for now. It is promising that your maples have made it through your summers with good leaf condition, something I've had trouble with here.
I have also changed up my soils a bit, and am doing a 3fold fert. program, liquid, solid and pellets. (not all for every tree). I've already seen some good results with the early bottom heat and stronger fert. on some of my weaker growing trees from last year.
Of course the early summer temps are pushing things along as well. Course now we look to be down to 27 on Monday, so we do the greenhouse quickstep soon.

Thanks again for being such a wonderful knowledge base for those of us without your years of experience. I do appreciate it very much!

BTW, what is going on in Smokes backyard???

And there is nothing bad about horticultural guilty pleasure...:rolleyes:
 

Smoke

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Just got my first humic acid, and they list different strength mixtures for different purposes. Of course, none are for bonsai....
The choices are hand feeding, hydroponic, and transplants.

I'm wondering which is best as a guideline, and how often I should use this. It recommends once a month.

Also should I fertilize at the same time, or before, or after???

Thanks!

What exactly do you have? Liquid concentrate of pure humic acid? Dry granulated humic acid, or...humic acid enriched fertilizer? Also, what percentage of humic acid is it?

5% bi-weekly on the soil is good. Don't waste your time on organic fertilizer if you have fast draining soil with a large particle size. Get more bang for your buck by buying two or three chemical fertilizers for the different stages of your trees. For instance, I use tomato food (0-5-3) on my tridents that are more or less shaped and I need to keep up ramification. Use a larger nitrogen food (10-7-5) for those in training where you want long top growth to build wood and branches. Use a balanced fertilizer (5-5-5) on trees that are reaching that point of going into a show pot and ready for the show.
 

Smoke

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8% bi-weekly is great.

Look for some chicken manure based fertilizer. there are some really great ones out there. They are really good for growth and getting a tree healthy again.

I find cottenseed meal the best overall fertilizer known. Just smells bad and the squirrels around here think they are in heaven.


Al
 
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Brian Van Fleet

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A buddy in Iowa uses Coop Poop, chicken manure based fertilizer from Earl May garden centers...not sure if they're in Ohio Judy. Good stuff...
 

edprocoat

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I have never heard of humic acid before, I read above where its used only in non organic mixtures to make them more suitable to plants. Does this mean that totally non organic is less than desirable for Bonsai? I ask as some swear by non organic mixes, while others use soil or a soil/non organic mix. I have grown in soil, in mix and in non organics such as aquarium gravel and small pea pebbles, the only difference I have ever found that is the gravels take much more watering and fertilizing. I like the gravels as they are easier when I repot, more or less shake the stuff off while the organic and even mixes usually ha to be sprayed away from the roots. The only stuff I have really hated is the stuff, I don't know the name, the stuff that is like little pieces of white styrofoam that gets stuck in the roots and ruins the look of the soil. Other than that I have never had a real problem with any soil or mix as everything seems to grow fine in whatever I use. lately I have been going with a mix of the crushed red lava rock and soil and fine composted pine bark in equal amounts, 1/3rd of each and it seems like everything else I have used over the years , the plants grow.

ed
 

Brian Van Fleet

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Simply put, if I'm not mistaken, humates are the very end product of organic decomposition. I use Plantone to make my fertilizer cakes, which contain several humates/ humic acids.

Generally speaking, people tend to use inorganic soils and feed organically, or vice-versa.
 
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