I beg your indulgence and pardon if offended

armetisius

armetisius

Chumono
Messages
843
Reaction score
876
Location
Central Alabama
USDA Zone
8
. . . . I just don't like to be know it all ish just in case there's some plant that's exactly like them that I have no idea about.
Click to expand...

Ain't no such critters; it all comes down to learning what "differences" to look for
to tell the two apart.

At the risk of opening a can of shyte; perhaps I owe an explanation for some of
my statements and what many consider "the high handed tone" (unintended) that apparently
bothers some here. Initially, when I was a child but not so naive as not to question
or listen carefully I noticed something. Somewhere around fifty years ago a
realization occurred to me; that we all have an obligation in this life that many
take a bit more flippantly than I did/do. The first commandment/order that we,
as an object of God's creation, have ever received directly from God was to tend
the Garden and be good stewarts of the Earth. [everything else has been delivered
second hand after the expulsion] But how can we be that, if we are not actually
concerned enough to learn it [nature] or observe it well enough to be more than
passingly acquainted with it. Can I walk through the woods in winter and tell you
if that bare tree is a dogwood, or nyssa, or hornbeam, or cercis or what? Yes. Why?
Because I made it my business to know and considered it my obligation to do so. I
haphazardly learned this until my Sophomore year in high school.
It was that year that I transferred to a new high school. We had four of the biggest
asses for PE coaches that anybody could imagine. The second day we ran around
the track for the entire class I went to our counselor. Why? As I told her, "I already
know how to run in circles. What else can I do?" I was told that a vocational course
would substitute but that the only way was to get permission from the instructor
to "take Horticulture I during the Horticulture II time block." [it was the only way to
arrange it and not totally mess up my schedule] Somehow, always thought it was a
lapse in sanity on his part, the instructor agreed. But only on the condition that, "you
will have to study and learn all the material you should have already covered" more
or less independently. So by the end of the first year I had worked my way through all
the worksheets, quizzes, circulars, etc. in his file cabinet and all the books on the
shelves of the library and the Horticulture library in the classroom. Must have worked
because when we went to the state level horticulture judging contest I placed 3rd in
the state individually out of 43 teams of 4 members each. When asked how I knew all
those plants, I gave the only answer that-to me-made sense, "don't you know the name
of all your best friends?" I still feel that way.
We are here to discuss bonsai. That is the purpose of this forum is it not? There are more
than a few gardening forums, plant sites, horticulture sites but here we discuss bonsai; or
have I misunderstood something? So when there is something I do know I say so. Hopefully
to free the floor for the continuation of our purpose--bonsai. Even though we have a forum
dedicated to "new to bonsai" we end up covering such ridiculous nonsense as "I bought me an
azalea now what do I do?" I usually bite my tongue instead of saying what I think, which is
"go to the forums and read what we told the last dozen lazy asses that asked". However, now
I am told that my sharing of information is not only not wanted but not welcomed here. Yes;
I do take offense to this. Why? Mainly because if they don't want to know badly enough to
cover some of it on their own, so that their questions could consist of clarifications
instead of hand feeding childish minds with childish attitudes, they don't deserve to know.
In spite of the general laxness here, nobody owes them shyte. If they cannot pull themselves out
of this "I showed up now gives me some answers" attitude why should we care? The information
is already there. But because so many seem to feel they are in some way entitled to be spoon
fed not only bonsai but horticulture in general we can never seem to progress beyond a discussion
about soil; or fawning over the third tired ass juniper today; or oooo'ing over some crockery. Or
worse yet identifying yet another Red Maple (Acer rubrum). Look it up. Use "search".
Now if I have offended you, perhaps you should question why you are offended. If you aren't
guilty of any of it then you have no need/right to be offended. However, if you are--grow the hell up.
There are more than a few that have asked and learned and genuinely endeavored to become
informed enough to begin answering questions on their own; when they do I am so very proud
for them and PM them my congratulations on actually learning it instead of learning how to
"parrot". Now if you don't have the time to read and learn what makes you think you will have
the time when it comes to caring for a tree. Or why should people waste their time trying. But I
am so very tired of asses that know just enough to verify the fool they are. Hey, don't care how
many times you dip a dog turd in chocolate it still isn't going to become a candy bar so don't
expect me to candy coat the truth for you. If you need that you have more problems than the
"give me" attitude.
Smile and have a great week.
 
Arme..., I'll take the chance and weigh in here. I tend to agree with what you say even though I may be one of/many of the newbies described. I'm seeing in your belief of your care of plants, that it does indeed come as an exortation from the/our (mine too) creator. I'll remind you though, you live in a country where big agriculture and big logging has taken over most of anyone's handling and growing both food or trees. You live in a society where if they see something and like it, they want it now. (Hmmm, cute/nice tree idea, I think I'll do a bonsai, and I want it done now.) In your younger years you put a great deal of effort into the learning of plants, but somehow you also have that thing called respect for them. I'd say that's a rarity these days among us hobbyists, yet I also tend to think the Japanese still for the most part still have it, (maybe it's due to their culture, maybe not?) and kinda maybe like you, it's on a spiritual level also? Me, I'm just a lowly hobbyist, started few years ago with some two inch high Jap maple seedlings from under a mother tree. I believed at the time they had to go on a lava rock. Still have them, but they are taking their sweet time. Just might have something to do with the idea I wasn't massively fertilyzing, didn't put em in proper soil, and didn't know a lot about them, other than I want em to look like a real bonsai and I want it now. They certainly didn't do what I expected. Brought some vine maples from the woods last year, some are seen in my avatar, (wull, uhhh, they have close node spacing). Totally laughable, (I know that now but didn't then). And "Azy", yeah that's the Azalea I have. Less than eighth inch twig cutting about six inches long. Yes, I posted questions about her. Had her in a terrarium through the first and only twin bloom, and asked bnut about her (don't specifically recall what) but took the advice and transplanted her from the terrarium but still kept in a warm room. After a while I thought I had ultimately killed her, few leaves left were brown, looked basically like a dead stick (kind'a sort'a wish I had'a posted some photos of her then just so I maybe could'a been chuckling at anyone that confirmed my belef, "yep, she's dead") , she wound up on my bonsai work bench outside, a couple months ago. Well, looking over the plants yesterday I see she's got buds opening where the few last leaves were. So, I'm thinking "she's alive"! But I really don't know. I will post some more re her. When I do post I attempt to get very specific answers to very specific questions, but that doesn't go over well because a lot of people are unable/unwilling to comprehend if you do this and that and this over here, what will then happen if I do this? Kinda like me looking at a prebonsai. No matter how I squint and look and... I still don't see the darn bonsai in there nor can I just imagine what one will be a year, ten years down the road. I seldom take a rig to an auto mechanic because I'm usually able to solve the problem, so when I'm asking specific questions, many "professional" mechanics "fix" the problem by simply replacing parts until they get what caused the problem. I'm desiring their knowledge/details of the matter so I can go and fix the problem myself. I don't simply replace parts, it doesn't make sense to me, nor cents to me. Narrow down the situation/question then come up with the answer. These bonsai function on a molecular/atom level but few are willing to really understand at that level, and that's OK. It will probably be about as long as it takes to make a decent bonsai before I forget an incident at the first local bonsai club meeting I went to. I took one of my maple on rock and asked for trimming/shaping info. As the instructor proceeded to talk about what needed removed, he was also moving his spherical cutters toward my tree in order to chop it to his liking (and I had seen him do the same with others). He soon no longer had the loppers in hand because I had em' in mine. I was asking for advice, not for him to make me a bonsai. What truely galled me was he hadn't even asked if he could cut part of my tree off. Within this last week I read Walter Pall's words saying he doesn't touch someone elses tree. He'll coach them from his knowledge base but it's their tree. Just another reason to believe Pall's got it down. Here's an unasked question I have. Details are: vine maples tend to not grow a straight up trunk, yet I'll probably do just that (relatively speaking, straight up, with the twists and turns of bonsai). So how do I/can I shape these, (yet not like vine maples), like Japanese maples? It is often amusing asking the "experts"/"professionals" (say, 6-8 people) answers to specific questions.
From about 13 years old on for another five decades, I have lived in the Pacific NW. I've done a couple week long backpack trips of about a hundred miles each and many weekend trips. Can't say much about the names of flora I passed, but i would have liked to have had a mental bonsai emphasis because I was often in the alpine zone and climbing the six major glaciated peaks of WA and Mt Hood in OR. Will always wonder what I didn't "see" because I wasn't mentally looking. Much of what you seem to be reaching for has to do with coming at bonsai respect, maturity, and discipline, and... Yes, "we are here to discuss bonsai" and it is happening on both the child's level and the mature level, with all the levels in between. I can't help you balance the frustration of us newbies asking repetitious and silly questions, nor do I believe it'll change much because we come to bonsai thnking we can simply "ask the sages for the answers" (even though they don't even agree). The true reality is the bonsaist needs to balance asking questions and determining the right answer, doing research, (uggg) and determining the right answer, and actually coming up with a plant and whacking, watering, and fertilizing, and... that same plant to see if what they learned is correct, and then do the do overs on those areas that weren't done right, which may mean throw that one in the dumpster, (no, don't get it back out, well on second thought?)....
Anyway, yes, please keep sharing. No, don't take offense, (people oftentimes can't communicate well what they mean, me included sometimes). From my own heart I suggest you coach rather than critique. Biting the tongue rather than say what you think can be very wise, though I rarely bite my tongue, but would rather bite the head off whoever I have the conflict with, or try to word it in a rather scathing manner. Hmmm, spoon feed em' or teach em' to fish, hmmm? "Man, this chocolate still tastes strange, wonder what's in it?" OK, I'm done rambling, and still smiling. :) See? I am.
 
armetisius said:
Smile and have a great week.
Click to expand...

OK :D I guess I missed what "sparked" this thread. I probably "auto-sifted" it out which I find myself doing on occasion here. It goes with the size of the forum and the broad spectrum of clients... I must.

Grimmy
 
58904267.jpg
 
It was in my thread,

Possible Dogwood?

I assumed this was a forum for bonsai. A place where a noob like me can learn. Sorry if I offended you with my lazy ass question. Why should I go and research online for my questions, when I have a vast pool of knowledge in this forum?
It seemed to me to be the smartest and EASIEST way to answer my question. In my opinion, you are very selfish with your knowledge.
And thank you to those forum members who share that knowledge, you know who you are.
 
I had another thought on this subject.

If you car breaks down and needs repair, who do call?
When your plumbing starts leaking who do you call?
Who do you call if you need wiring updated in your electrical service panel?
Or better yet, when you have to have surgery , who do you call?
Of course we call the doctor, who went to school to learn to perform surgery. Or the mechanic, plumber, and the electrician.

Why don't you do it yourself?
You must be lazy then if you dont.

My point is simple, I call upon the experts. Doesn't mean that I don't plan on becoming an expert with bonsai. I can replace pipes, fix a car, maybe run some wires, even perform minor surgery on myself, ( pulling a splinter out of my finger with tweezers ), but when it comes to something beyond my ability, I ask the pros.
 
Jarath said:
I had another thought on this subject.

If you car breaks down and needs repair, who do call?
When your plumbing starts leaking who do you call?
Who do you call if you need wiring updated in your electrical service panel?
Or better yet, when you have to have surgery , who do you call?
Of course we call the doctor, who went to school to learn to perform surgery. Or the mechanic, plumber, and the electrician.

Why don't you do it yourself?
You must be lazy then if you dont.

My point is simple, I call upon the experts. Doesn't mean that I don't plan on becoming an expert with bonsai. I can replace pipes, fix a car, maybe run some wires, even perform minor surgery on myself, ( pulling a splinter out of my finger with tweezers ), but when it comes to something beyond my ability, I ask the pros.
Click to expand...
What do you think is the lowest hourly rate for any of those?

EDIT: to clarify my flippant comment - I only mean to point out that with free advice you may have to sift through some junk to get the good stuff . . . and that's ok.
 
Last edited:
Jarath said:
I had another thought on this subject.

If you car breaks down and needs repair, who do call?
When your plumbing starts leaking who do you call?
Who do you call if you need wiring updated in your electrical service panel?
Or better yet, when you have to have surgery , who do you call?
Of course we call the doctor, who went to school to learn to perform surgery. Or the mechanic, plumber, and the electrician.

Why don't you do it yourself?
You must be lazy then if you dont.

My point is simple, I call upon the experts. Doesn't mean that I don't plan on becoming an expert with bonsai. I can replace pipes, fix a car, maybe run some wires, even perform minor surgery on myself, ( pulling a splinter out of my finger with tweezers ), but when it comes to something beyond my ability, I ask the pros.
Click to expand...

See here's the thing--throughout your posts there is a constant thread that those of us with knowledge have to serve you.

The examples you provide are PAID for their time and expertise.

With bonsai, ALL of us self-taught. We put in the time and effort on our own. We do not owe you anything. Getting pissed off because we don't answer you quickly enough or ask for the common courtesy of doing at least a little background research, makes people less likely to provide you with information.

Not asking for any deep Japanese bows, or heck even a civil tone, just a LITTLE bit of up front effort
 
Last edited:
Then what is the point of the forum?
So far, I have gathered that noobs asking questions annoys those with knowledge. I research before I ask, but don't find the info I need to understand it. Then I ask. Do I need to pay per use in this forum?
 
That was 2 questions, how much do I owe?
 
I'm on both sides of this, I've leaned most of what I know from research and hands on experience. I'm lucky enough though to work at a nursery where I can learn things as well, that's how I identified the crape myrtle, because I see them everyday. Research is good but in his situation his father said it was a dogwood, which means it can be pretty hard to figure out that is actually a crape unless you stumbled upon an image that's similar. I've had trees before that for the life of me I could not figure out the species, until I asked a knowledgeable friend or as I said, stumbled across a similar image.
I say do some research, if you can't figure it out then ask. This forum is here to learn new things and teach others, we shouldn't batter anyone for asking a simple question.
Also I'm still interested in why you started this thread with a quote from my post? @armetisius

Aaron
 
Last edited:
Jarath said:
I had another thought on this subject..

Why don't you do it yourself?
You must be lazy then if you dont.

My point is simple, I call upon the experts. Doesn't mean that I don't plan on becoming an expert with bonsai. I can replace pipes, fix a car, maybe run some wires, even perform minor surgery on myself, ( pulling a splinter out of my finger with tweezers ), but when it comes to something beyond my ability, I ask the pros.
Click to expand...

I believe your starting off on the wrong foot...you may wish to reread your post.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with typing into the search a topic at hand...read what was written THEN if you have questions on it. Ask...

We are adults here who should have learned a thing or two on how to do a little homework back in school. Ones have no issues if one puts forth the effort.

Now,if your not sure how a forum is ran...and need schooled. (Speaking from experience as to when I joined I was not familiar with the inner workings of one. As my earlier posts can attest.) But,to have an issue with the search feature is ridiculous and lazy. If one can't put forth the effort to help themselves...how can they expect ones to put forth the effort to offer up assistance?
 
Last edited:
Jarath said:
Then what is the point of the forum?
So far, I have gathered that noobs asking questions annoys those with knowledge. I research before I ask, but don't find the info I need to understand it. Then I ask. Do I need to pay per use in this forum?
Click to expand...
Uh, no, It's YOU asking questions with a 'fuck you" attitude that annoys us.
 
Is there a crib notes version of the complaint in the OP....because TLDR
Im too tired from repotting and working on trees the last 4 hours. You know, doing bonsai.

Otherwise...meh....Dont care
Carry on

*EDIT*

OK the last few (shorter) posts give me some idea of what is going on.

Ready? Here we go......

Anyone is welcome here and anyone is welcome to ask questions, however you need to understand a few things (ok 9 things, maybe 10).

1. No one is paid to be here, for most of us this is a hobby.

2. Most of us have jobs and families and a few trees to work on.

3. It isn't our job or obligation to sit here waiting for your every question and teach you basic bonsai by regurgitating stuff you can very easily learn on your own.

4. Bonsai is a lot of work and learning bonsai is even more work.

5. Most of the work of learning bonsai is TEACHING YOURSELF.

6. The information is out there. You can find it very easily if you just do the WORK.

7. You need to be willing to go SEARCH and READ books, forums, blogs etc for information *:eek:GASP....THE HORROR!!!*

8. The more basic bonsai you can learn on your own, the more you will understand and be able to ask better questions.

9. Coming here, asking questions and getting and uppity attitude towards people that are taking their free time to try and help you isn't going to get you very far.

10. Have a nice day

Let's call it Paradox's 10 rules of the BNut Forums :p
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom