I found this very helpful ... decandling vs. breaking pine shoots.

Kelly

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M. Frary

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Come to find out candles and shoots are different? That decandling isn't decandling at all? It's de shooting?
 

Adair M

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Come to find out candles and shoots are different? That decandling isn't decandling at all? It's de shooting?
Yes, Mike, we've had this discussion before. You are technically correct.

But everyone still calls it "decandling".

And, I think it comes from how the technique has evolved over the years. The practice of "decandling" now occurs much later in the growing season than it was fine when the technique was first discovered. In John Naka's book ( I think it's BT 1), he describes the procedure, but his drawings illustrate a candle, before it has produced any needles! Everyone today would say that is too early, the second set of needles would have a longer growing season, and wouldn't shorten much.

It doesn't matter what we call it as long as everyone understands what it is.
 

M. Frary

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Yes, Mike, we've had this discussion before. You are technically correct.

But everyone still calls it "decandling".

And, I think it comes from how the technique has evolved over the years. The practice of "decandling" now occurs much later in the growing season than it was fine when the technique was first discovered. In John Naka's book ( I think it's BT 1), he describes the procedure, but his drawings illustrate a candle, before it has produced any needles! Everyone today would say that is too early, the second set of needles would have a longer growing season, and wouldn't shorten much.

It doesn't matter what we call it as long as everyone understands what it is.
I figured that post would wake you up. It's all good Adair.
I'm just out having fun today. Last work day for me. Spring is almost here. Got only a few more trees to dig. Bassing it up Saturday. Ordering a Chippendale thong from Dave4's thong shop to deter scrotal failure. Talked to @Mellow Mullet maybe getting one of them $450.00 azaleas to freeze this winter. Found a nursery with 10 gallon mugo pines. Ordering lava and pumice. My trees that are left are waking up. The trees that I've collected this year so far are doing great.
I'm having an overall great day. I think you shouldn't take me too seriously. ;)
 

Adair M

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I figured that post would wake you up. It's all good Adair.
I'm just out having fun today. Last work day for me. Spring is almost here. Got only a few more trees to dig. Bassing it up Saturday. Ordering a Chippendale thong from Dave4's thong shop to deter scrotal failure. Talked to @Mellow Mullet maybe getting one of them $450.00 azaleas to freeze this winter. Found a nursery with 10 gallon mugo pines. Ordering lava and pumice. My trees that are left are waking up. The trees that I've collected this year so far are doing great.
I'm having an overall great day. I think you shouldn't take me too seriously. ;)
You're starting early, Mike. The frozen Margarittas are later tonight!
 

AlainK

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A video about "Tambaho" (totally removing the candles)


It works on Scots pines:
- remove the needles except for a couple of pairs at the base of the buds. It seems better to cut them with scissors: what's left of the needles will dry out, and there's more chance that there will be backbudding there than when you just pull them out, which might damage the bark.
- when the candles are developped but before new needles appear, remove them.
- the tree should backbud a couple of weeks later, sometimes on 3-4 year-old branches.

I don't have many conifers, but I experimented it on a small Scots pine and it worked very well. Unfortunately the tree died for lack of care in a very hot summer...
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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For all those intermediate and novice growers reading this discussion. De-candling, De-shooting or total bud removal as in the above link for Scotts and Mugo pines, these techniques are a medium to major stress for the tree. They are NOT performed on weak trees. Never do these techniques ''automatically''. First, decide if the tree design would benefit, then decide whether the tree is healthy enough. Healthy means lots of buds or lots of big fat bushy shoots. Being healthy means the tree was not repotted within 12 months of the date you want to do the technique.

Stressing a tree that is not in good health, can put the tree in a death spiral of slow decline. If you push the tree too hard, you risk loosing it. At least with JBP, if you skip decandling a year or two, you can ''go back'' 2 or 3 years and get good bud response, if you did not pull all the old needles in the older internodes.

I made the error more than once of thinking my tree was healthy enough, and ended up loosing the tree. Dead trees are not the end goal. Big Fat Bushy foxtails of foliage is normal good health for a JBP, if you are not seeing that, your tree is not in good health. Improve your horticulture before decandling. If you are new to JBP you might confuse weak growth for healthy if you have never seen healthy growth in person. Books don't show enough ''before'' photos, and explain what the necessary vigor needed looks like very well.

Ok, caution warning over.

Mike Hagadorn's articles are great, he is a Student of Boon, and Boon's technique is good in these matters.
 
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johng

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Mike Hagadorn's articles are great, he is a Student of Boon, and Boon's technique is good in these matters.
Too funny Leo!! I guess Michael being Shinji Suzuki's apprentice for 4 or 5 years in Japan is less important than a few of Boon's weekend intensives:)

it is also funny that the most popular blog in Japan has a different story about pine candling techniques:)
http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/fwnt1093/17424519.html

Just goes to show you there is more than one way to skin a cat...
 

M. Frary

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Thongs on anyone over the age of 25 should require special licensing. I am NOT volunteering as an inspector.
I'm thinking about taking the Al Keppler Thong certification course online. It's $69.69 but it's worth it. You get certified to wear thongs in public in every state.
And for that price you also get some examples of witty retorts for the people that say things about larger mature men who wear thongs.
About getting scots pine to backbud. If you want to really see a pine back bud wait until the shoot has just hardened off then cut back into last year's growth. It will go crazy. Buds will come out of the trunk instead of just along the branch.
 

Adair M

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Too funny Leo!! I guess Michael being Shinji Suzuki's apprentice for 4 or 5 years in Japan is less important than a few of Boon's weekend intensives:)

it is also funny that the most popular blog in Japan has a different story about pine candling techniques:)
http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/fwnt1093/17424519.html

Just goes to show you there is more than one way to skin a cat...
Let's be fair, John. A lot of the reason Michael got the gig with Shinji was because of Boon's recommendation.

Let's also not forget that Boon is one of two certified "Masters" living in the US. The other being Kathy Shaner. Both are certified by the Nippon Bonsai Association.
 

johng

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Let's also not forget that Boon is one of two certified "Masters" living in the US. The other being Kathy Shaner. Both are certified by the Nippon Bonsai Association
That is pretty forgettable....especially since neither one of them are even in the same class with Ryan...not sure a piece of paper carries a lot of weight in this sport??:)

I wasnt really trying to diss Boon in any way with my earlier comment....just thought it was funny that his boon experience seemed to outweigh his apprenticeship....
 

M. Frary

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But do Boon or Hagedorn sport thongs?
 

Adair M

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That is pretty forgettable....especially since neither one of them are even in the same class with Ryan...not sure a piece of paper carries a lot of weight in this sport??:)

I wasnt really trying to diss Boon in any way with my earlier comment....just thought it was funny that his boon experience seemed to outweigh his apprenticeship....
John,

I think this thread is turning into "this bonsai master is better than that one". And there's little to be gained from that kind of discussion.

The real point is these guys (and lady) who have studied in Japan, under pretty unfavorable conditions, are bring back the knowledge and techniques like never before. I am grateful for all of them.

And they all pretty much decandle the same way(s). Yeah, there are several variations, and sometimes one method is used on one tree, and another on a different tree, but they're all similiar enough that the basic concept is pretty much universal.
 

bwaynef

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it is also funny that the most popular blog in Japan has a different story about pine candling techniques:)
http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/fwnt1093/17424519.html

Just goes to show you there is more than one way to skin a cat...
That looks more like a congestion relief measure than decandling (for the reasons we decandle). That post ends with (according to Google Translate via Chrome) "Crowded place is the result to avoid." If I'm understanding, he's reducing from 4 candles/shoots to 2, much like the recommendation I've seen in the fall. He's just doing it in the spring.
 

johng

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That looks more like a congestion relief measure than decandling (for the reasons we decandle). That post ends with (according to Google Translate via Chrome) "Crowded place is the result to avoid." If I'm understanding, he's reducing from 4 candles/shoots to 2, much like the recommendation I've seen in the fall. He's just doing it in the spring.
Certainly...but the point is he was breaking(partially removing) the buds (only a JWP technique according to the article in question) and something not to do with 2 flush pines. Also in the wrong season... AS I said, there is more than one way to treat pines in spite of what some think.
 

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