I found this very helpful ... decandling vs. breaking pine shoots.

Adair M

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I tried to open that link on my iPhone, but it only came up in Japanese.

That little tree had a lot of candles. You can remove some and keep some in the spring prior to decandling, or you can break them back prior to decandling...

All kinds of ways to do it. The exact procedure you do might vary for each particular tree and what your goals for that tree are. That one is a shohin. So, they don't want the branches to get too thick. So prior to decandling, some candles need to be removed and/or broken back to prevent excess swelling.

Then, later in the summer, mid July probably, the tree will get decandled. He may choose to do the 10 day technique or the one day technique, or a combo of both.

Since I can't get the article to read in English, I can't really say too much. But I think you are misinterpreting the "candle breaking" only being a JWP technique. It's used with JBP, too. Decandling is not used with JWP. So, I think what the blog was trying to say that sometimes it's appropriate to to a JWP technique (candle breaking) on a JBP if the JBP is too vigorous.

That's nothing new, John. It is a subtle nuance about JBP care. Boon teaches stuff like that in his classes.

I wouldn't bring something like that up here because most here would only get confused. I mean, there's many here who unfortunately assume "two needles" equates to "double flush", which would be incorrect.

As an example, look at AlainK's post in this thread. Watch the video, then read his post below. Reading and watching that, I would be totally confused. The video is about JBP. It's a demo and a lady is trying to translate what the Master is saying in Japanese into English on stage. His post is about Scots pines. Who wouldn't be confused?

When I post about pine care, I try to keep it simple.
 

petegreg

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I would have a Q... I've red that all techniques applied for pine pruning are NOT all or nothing. Talking about one tree...if we need branch grow we can leave it intact. If If we need keep the other branch under control, we can prune. Can this be used for all pines, but sure with right techniques and in right time?
 

Adair M

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I would have a Q... I've red that all techniques applied for pine pruning are NOT all or nothing. Talking about one tree...if we need branch grow we can leave it intact. If If we need keep the other branch under control, we can prune. Can this be used for all pines, but sure with right techniques and in right time?
Yes.
 

petegreg

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Thank you Adair. I'll will specify the issue more... Imagine a scots pine. It needs have the top growth a little bit softened and compacted, so:

1) I'll break candles leaving just 1/2 or less in the spring on the top of the tree.

...it needs some back budding on lower
branches, so:

2) I'll let these candles develop and cut them leaving just few pairs of this year's growth in June/July.

...and the tree has got some flaws, long trunk internodes, branches missing on the right... I'm trying to shape one of the lowest branches upwards following the main trunk line to fill up the empty spaces, so:

3) I'll let this part of the tree grow freely.

I think this tree'll consider me stupid, won't it?
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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Too funny Leo!! I guess Michael being Shinji Suzuki's apprentice for 4 or 5 years in Japan is less important than a few of Boon's weekend intensives:)

it is also funny that the most popular blog in Japan has a different story about pine candling techniques:)
http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/fwnt1093/17424519.html

Just goes to show you there is more than one way to skin a cat...

My bad John, I was working from memory, did not fact check myself. My end point remains that Mike Hagadorn's technique is good. Certainly, Mr Shinji Susuki isa master and knows what he is doing. Mike learned from some of the best.

@Adair M - there are multiple techniques that work, it is best to pick one and follow it, mixing and matching parts of technique is risky if you are not familar with how the tree will respond.

I agree, there are techniques for JWP and 5 needle pines in general, double flush 2 needle pines, and techniques for single flush 2 needle and 3 needle pines. 3 different growth patterns, requiring 3 different techniques. Lots of variations on each of the 3 themes.
 
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Adair M

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@Adair M - there are multiple techniques that work, it is best to pick one and follow it, mixing and matching parts of technique is risky if you are not familar with how the tree will respond.
Not risky if you know what you're doing.

Leo, there's a lot of subtle techniques that go into the refinement process of JBP. Cutting candles is one. The timing is very important. The length of the stub (or lack thereof) is very important. Pulling needles, or not pulling needles, has an effect. Pulling needles at the same time as decandling has an effect. Pulling more needles on parts of the tree and fewer if any on other parts of the tree, has an effect. Putting ALL these techniques together, can really put you in control of the growth of the tree.

But, you have to know what you're doing!

I see people all the time asking about thickening the trunk on a tree they've either pulled most of the needles from, or just decandled! I mean, how do you expect the tree to grow?

Boon teaches advanced techniques. Like decandling. Your first decandling class, you do basic decandling. The next year, you might work on a more advanced tree where you might need yo decandle and pull some needles. The next year pull differnent amount of needles, do a partial decandling on only part of the tree, because the rest of the tree needs to be done two weeks later, or was done two weeks before you got there. It's why to complete the Intensive class series, it takes three years. You build your skills over time.

To give you an example of how it works together, my JBP that is my avatar I normally decandle the first week of June. The needles were getting a little too short, they were about 3/4 inch. I wanted them to be an inch. Why? For the health of the tree. Longer needles gather more sunlight. So last year, I decandled in May. My needles grew to an inch. Just what I wanted.

This year, I'm taking that tree to Rochester for the Nationals. I want short needles again. So, I'm decandling in June.
 

M. Frary

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.and the tree has got some flaws, long trunk internodes, branches missing on the right...
You want branches in these spots? You need to do more than break candles in half. The scots pine ain't no wimpy JWP or JBP. It is a backbudding powerhouse. That's why they are used for Christmas trees. After the candles have extended and turned into shoots,right after they harden off cut them back into last year's growth. It will backbud all over. On the trunk and the branches. No need to screw with breaking candles in half. Just eliminate that bud altogether before it turns into a candle. Which you should be doing anyway to divert energy. Why let it use any energy in a candle the you don't need? There are like 5 buds on the end of a healthy scots pine limb. Eliminate the giant one and a couple more leaving just 2 small ones.
 

petegreg

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Yeah, Christmas trees... this one is P.s. 'Watereri' , the cultivar grown here for the Christmas. I've got it only for a half of year, received it for my help during our National bonsai show. So except initial styling (wiring) in the fall I haven't been able to do anything, even watching it grow for all season.

Thank you Mike indeed. So I'll definitely skip the candle pinching. Then I'll decandle the part of tree that's supposed to backbud and leave the new forming semi-trunk intact. You are right... Decandling -> backbuding -> new branchlets developed from the backbuds -> branch back pruning... that's is the way.

Edit: But I think the trunk is old enough to backbud, I'll see.
 

bwaynef

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Certainly...but the point is he was breaking(partially removing) the buds

It looked more to me like they were being completely removed. I'll double-check later when I have a bit more time.
 

Adair M

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It looked more to me like they were being completely removed. I'll double-check later when I have a bit more time.
It appears that JohnG is correct, the candles were pinched. Another term for it is "breaking" the candles. And it is part of the JBP regimine when the spring candles are really strong. The time to do it is when the candles have extended, and are just beginning to show needles. Just how they are pictured. Later in the summer, they will be removed completely (decandled) and a new set of summer candles will emerge.

So, the question is: why break them back if we're going to decandle them in the summer anyway?

Answer: to prevent the branches from fattening. This little tree is a mame, even smaller than a shohin, so it's important to keep everything as much in scale as possible. If we allowed the shoots to grow it until midsummer, the branches would swell. Then, swell again as the new summer candles grew after decandling. Breaking back will slow that down a bit.

It's not just a "shohin" technique. You can do it on any size JBP where the spring candles are too vigorous and might cause unwanted swelling of branches. Or cause the tree to "get out of balance".

What does "out of balance" mean? It's where some parts of the tree appear to be stronger than other parts. When refining JBP, the goal is to have the tree appear to be equally strong all over.

Needles the same length all over, the branch pads of equal density, etc. JBP tend to want to grow stronger up at the apex. Their natural habit is to grow up strong, and let the bottom branches die off. So, it's a constant battle to get the tree balanced in the first place, then keep it there. All the while keeping it healthy.

Decandling, wiring, and needle pulling are our tools to make this happen. Quite frankly, it takes a good understanding of, and application of all three to produce good JBP.

I know, it sounds daunting, but it's a fun learning process. JBP really do respond well to the techniques.
 
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