I have wondered about this for years....

[Smoke]

Hypothetically of course, how would you feel, and would you support a forum that only allowed a person to reply to a thread if you could post a picture of the work, done by you, of the question being asked.


Here is why I wonder.

Over the past few months I have noticed an abundance of people tell newer people to "chop" their tree. While I am a firm supporter of tree chopping for a multitude of reasons, I am amazed at the amount of people that will tell someone to chop something, yet have no idea what the aftercare will, nor how to proceed with the material after the chop in the next few years.

What I would love to see is when a poster offers a reply of chopping a tree, I would love to see some work they have done on trunk chopping and how that technique will benifit the person asking the question. The actual recovery time for a good productive chop is well over four years, yet I see people here telling new people to chop their tree and they themselves have only been doing bonsai for a few years. There is no way they can know how to really evaluate what it takes and how to handle the chop.

I see the same thing everyday here with layering. Recently we were introduced to a blog, Neli, with a section on layering. I seen many photo's of trees cut, but no pictures of roots, or how to handle a layer that is one sided. Making a cut on a trunk, placing some moss on and covering it with plastic is not doing a layer. That is attempting to do a layer. It is not a layer untill after the roots have grown, the tree is severed off and the tree is growing.

I also see many posters talk about cuttings. Many species are easy to do cuttings, but many are very hard like juniper and many other conifers.

Grafting is a real pet peeve of mine. Grafting is a very specialized process. It is often tried, but rarely successful. People throw the grafting idea around like they have done a hundred. I would absolutly love to see some people show some successful grafting pictures here. Tell us what you did and how it worked. Show us the plant with its new branch growing healthy after it has been cut free.

When a forum reaches a point that it becomes a very good learning place, it will be because there will be posters that can show some work and not repeat all that they read last night.

Want to stop all the sniping?
Show some work!

 

[Smoke]

A for instance, In over thirty years I have never owned a mugo pine. I do not like nursery mugo's and would never own one. No slight to those that do, my opinion only.

How many mugo threads do you think have been started since 1997. A hundred? A thousand?

Since 1997 I have never uttered a word in a mugo pine thread. Don't know anything about them, never worked on one. Why in the hell would I try and throw my two cents in about something I know nothing about? I can offer nothing to the discussion.

We could say the same thing about things like akadama, poo balls, cut paste and a myriad of other opinion type topics that people have an opinion about yet have never even owned a can of poo balls nor owned a tube of Japanese cut paste.

How can an opinion be formed if it has never been used?

 

[fourteener]

The difference between orthodoxy and orthopraxy.

Orthodoxy: correct knowing, book smart
Orthopraxy: correct practice, street smart

Show me some correct practice!!

 

[berobinson82]

I'd love to lurk that forum

Hypothetically of course, how would you feel, and would you support a forum that only allowed a person to reply to a thread if you could post a picture of the work, done by you, of the question being asked.


Hypothetically, what if those pictures of the work earned you a forum badge? That way when responding in a maple thread, if you've demonstrated maple experience, your badge would prove you're speaking from experience. Al, you'd have no badge in mugo but I bet the rest of your slash would be full up. That way, you'd still have the open conversation of folks that might want to ask questions in the thread, but the advice from those certified members would obviously be taken moreso to gospel.

Also, I imagine the desire to earn your "stripes" would encourage folks to post more progressions; the forum would be more rich with experience.

Just brainstorming with you.

 

[buddhamonk]

Been on this forum for a long time and decided to stop posting a few months ago when I found the lack of interest for actual bonsai work to be more and more common. Here's an exemple, I posted this thread which gathered no interest...today I removed the bags and over 50% of the graft are growing but didn't take pictures because I knew no one would care...BTW I'm not upset, just disinterested in this forum at this point...

http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?10409-Went-to-a-club-meeting

anyway I'm off to actually do some bonsai work instead of talking about it...

 

[Paradox]

I dont know, but Ive got a feeling that I know why you pose this hypothetical. One thing it might do is stifle discussion to the point where people get disinterested and go elsewhere.

I can only speak for myself and I will say that I do try very hard to follow some basic self imposed principles when offering advice here:

When I do respond to someone with advice, it is almost always someone that has even less experience than I do, it is always on a species that I am currently growing and it is something that I have done or am doing with that species. Its not based on what I have read in books or on the forums.

I dont comment on species I am not currently growing or on techniques I have not done unless its to ask a question.

Granted what I have done is pretty limited and its usually pretty rudimentary stuff, usually about repotting and pruning, timing, seasons etc.

This excludes a very few posts where people were talking about some design choices for a tree where I felt there was a reasonable alternative that had not been discussed.

 

[Smoke]

Actually, you have hit the very notion I was hoping for. Questions are the key to understanding.

Questions are wonderful. An answer to ones question is gold.

I would never think of a question in the same way as twelve posters telling someone to "put it in the ground", or "chop that sucker right there at the crook".

How many people here can show any pictures of long term growing of material in the ground and how to deal with all the things that go wrong with growing in the ground?

I will wager half a dozen of over five years. Yet, there are literally hundreds here that tell people to put their crap in the ground everyday and have no idea what the plant will do because;
A. They have never grown in the ground
B. They have a few plants in the ground, but they are in the first or second year and the bad stuff hasn't started yet.

Questions are very good.

 

[Smoke]

Hypothetically of course, how would you feel, and would you support a forum that only allowed a person to reply to a thread if you could post a picture of the work, done by you, of the question being asked.


Hypothetically, what if those pictures of the work earned you a forum badge? That way when responding in a maple thread, if you've demonstrated maple experience, your badge would prove you're speaking from experience. Al, you'd have no badge in mugo but I bet the rest of your slash would be full up. That way, you'd still have the open conversation of folks that might want to ask questions in the thread, but the advice from those certified members would obviously be taken moreso to gospel.

Also, I imagine the desire to earn your "stripes" would encourage folks to post more progressions; the forum would be more rich with experience.

Just brainstorming with you.

Thanks, I didn't quote you and a few replies snuck in between, but my "questions" reply had to do with this reply.

Administrators have from time to time added little tweaks to forums to help in seperating the wheat from the chaff. BonsaiTALK tried it with "reputation' which was a little like the "thanks' button here. Like bonsaiTALK, a thanks can be removed or one could offer negative reputation. Those around at that time know what happened during that time with the reputation.

I love to read all the posts at the forum everyday. I read them on my I-phone at lunch. I find myself offering thanks in a thread because
A. my keyboard is small
B. it is easier to push a button. There I offered my seal of approval to that guys post. I did my part.

Trouble is no one learns anything from a thankyou. Much more could be learned by asking a question. Even more could be learned with an answer. The badge idea is a good idea, but it still is open to suggestion by friends and all that crap. Just post some pictures of what you have accomplished and what you did to get there. That is what seperates the wheat from the chaff.

I remember years ago before the meltdown at IBC, the intimidation factor of having a forum with a strict picture posting policy. Since that time it is not there so much and lots of crap shows up. There are the names, the old guard, the ones that have the picture credentials to back up their work and it is those names that person upon coming home from work can be assured that when they open a new post from Pavel Slovak, they will be treated.

 

[Smoke]

Been on this forum for a long time and decided to stop posting a few months ago when I found the lack of interest for actual bonsai work to be more and more common. Here's an exemple, I posted this thread which gathered no interest...today I removed the bags and over 50% of the graft are growing but didn't take pictures because I knew no one would care...BTW I'm not upset, just disinterested in this forum at this point...

http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?10409-Went-to-a-club-meeting

anyway I'm off to actually do some bonsai work instead of talking about it...

Good for you...It's still 90 degrees at 9:22PM. I don't like to sweat when its dark outside.

 

[iant]

I may have sometimes been one of those posters offering advice based on things I've read. I think you have a point Al. It's hard though because the peak of interest in some people may be the early years in a hobby. So they're excited and want to share. I'm excited and I want to share! There are some folks out there who have 10-20 yrs experience that I'd love to hear their thoughts on the matter but they may not logging on everyday to offer advice. I myself have 13 years experience but much more active the last 3 years but there's still lots of stuff I'm only in process with and can't really show the final results of yet... It's a frickin slow hobby! That's why I love it so much. I got a lot of respect for you Al. I first 'ran into' you (your posts rather) on Gardenweb looking for soil recommendations and coming across 'Al's gritty mix' by Tapla. I assume that's you, right? I'm amazed by the number of helpful responses you have there to people's questions. You're a rare bird who wants to help others and is super active even after years of experience. (By the way if I'm wrong about the Tapla connection let me know...)
Anyway I think it's good to remind those of us that respond a lot that we should probably give a statement like (I've heard or I've read) and if we do have experience we should post pictures of our experience. I myself have some cool useful stuff I'm looking forward to posting in the future once it's worked or not worked but it's a very slow process!
Ian

 

[0soyoung]

Frankly, I find it to be relatively easy to separate the wheat from the chaff here.

When I started trying to 'do bonsai' I had the good fortune to stumble onto Brent's articles. There should be a test ....


BTW, Al, I bet you never read Playboy for the articles.

 

[Smoke]

I may have sometimes been one of those posters offering advice based on things I've read. I think you have a point Al. It's hard though because the peak of interest in some people may be the early years in a hobby. So they're excited and want to share. I'm excited and I want to share! There are some folks out there who have 10-20 yrs experience that I'd love to hear their thoughts on the matter but they may not logging on everyday to offer advice. I myself have 13 years experience but much more active the last 3 years but there's still lots of stuff I'm only in process with and can't really show the final results of yet... It's a frickin slow hobby! That's why I love it so much. I got a lot of respect for you Al. I first 'ran into' you (your posts rather) on Gardenweb looking for soil recommendations and coming across 'Al's gritty mix' by Tapla. I assume that's you, right? I'm amazed by the number of helpful responses you have there to people's questions. You're a rare bird who wants to help others and is super active even after years of experience. (By the way if I'm wrong about the Tapla connection let me know...)
Anyway I think it's good to remind those of us that respond a lot that we should probably give a statement like (I've heard or I've read) and if we do have experience we should post pictures of our experience. I myself have some cool useful stuff I'm looking forward to posting in the future once it's worked or not worked but it's a very slow process!
Ian

No that wasn't me. My gardenweb days were back in 95 on the list server. I did a lot of lurking back then. Mr. Hernandez banished me to Disneyland a couple times when I got cocky. Might have been the only two times I actually posted there. This was back in the years of Vance Woods ASNF club.

Frankly, I find it to be relatively easy to separate the wheat from the chaff here.

When I started trying to 'do bonsai' I had the good fortune to stumble onto Brent's articles. There should be a test ....


BTW, Al, I bet you never read Playboy for the articles.

There's articles?

 

[Smoke]

Just a reminder....

This is a hypothetical idea of having a forum that required history of work done on that of which you speak.

No one is saying that all posts are not welcome here. This is just discussion since there is no work posted here right now.

Have fun.

 

[Smoke]

One other item that ties in with this theme is doing work.

For instance there are many that post a plant here seeking help and recieve all sorts of ideas for improving their tree, yet never do any of the things suggested.

Kinda like the guy that takes the workshop from the Big Name Guy, pays big bucks, and then decides to do whatever he wants when he gets home because he doesn't agree with the Big Guy.

Why in the hell does anyone ask for help and then refuse to do it?

How many like this line...."What do you guys think". That phrase should be banned.

 

[Smoke]

BTW, Al, I bet you never read Playboy for the articles.

You know I'm not much of a porn guy, but I have been thinking about this How-To Video I want to make of me in my pink thong, teaching twerking with a big foam finger!

"what do you guys think"

Bwah hahaha ....cough.......Damn I need to get that checked.

 

[0soyoung]

You know I'm not much of a porn guy, but I have been thinking about this How-To Video I want to make of me in my pink thong, teaching twerking with a big foam finger!

"what do you guys think"

Bwah hahaha ....cough.......Damn I need to get that checked.

 

[ptnull]

One other item that ties in with this theme is doing work.
For instance there are many that post a plant here seeking help and recieve all sorts of ideas for improving their tree, yet never do any of the things suggested.

Probably some don't follow the advice because of what you mentioned before.
There is no sample or proof.

 

[Anthony]

Al,

a few days ago, I got a virtual done for someone on a ficus. To show them how to get there, would be simple if I could see the tree in reality. A photograph is a flat situation, Bonsai is 3d.
That would be the only reason, I could go no further.

How do you get around that situation?
Good Morning
Anthony

 

[Eric Group]

One other item that ties in with this theme is doing work.

For instance there are many that post a plant here seeking help and recieve all sorts of ideas for improving their tree, yet never do any of the things suggested.

Kinda like the guy that takes the workshop from the Big Name Guy, pays big bucks, and then decides to do whatever he wants when he gets home because he doesn't agree with the Big Guy.

Why in the hell does anyone ask for help and then refuse to do it?

How many like this line...."What do you guys think". That phrase should be banned.

Well, I have seen many a times when some beginner has asked for advice on something, hoping for a simple style direction, only to receive replies that told them to complete some advanced technique: "ground layer it off above that uneven nebari, let it grow a new set of roots, thread graft a new branch at the outside of the second curve..." While that may seem like easy work to people who have been doing this for thirty Years, to a newb, that is basically telling them to saw the tree In Half and watch it die!

I am not saying that the advice that newb was given may not have been the best advice for developing a masterpiece, just that the advice should be catered to the person who is asking the question sometimes. I have been doing this a pretty long time myself, and working with plants my whole life, but I don't feel comfortable completing some of the techniques I have read about in books and seen described in videos and photo montages on the Internet.

 

[xtolord]

One other item that ties in with this theme is doing work.

For instance there are many that post a plant here seeking help and recieve all sorts of ideas for improving their tree, yet never do any of the things suggested.

Kinda like the guy that takes the workshop from the Big Name Guy, pays big bucks, and then decides to do whatever he wants when he gets home because he doesn't agree with the Big Guy.

Why in the hell does anyone ask for help and then refuse to do it?

There are multiple reasons,
> Maybe the guy did not understand a thing about the suggestions given and was afraid to look more stupid [ it happens ]. A lots of beginners ask for help, but we often overlook the fact that most beginners may not know the bonsai basic. I got that issue a lot when asking questions on handling pines, even now its a nightmare sometimes.

> Maybe what was suggested was one or two levels above what the guy asking is currently able to do. Doing an airlayer is pretty basic, but it can be a scary adventure if your doing it for the first time ever on your best tree ever

> Last in my list, but most probably closer to the mark for a lot of beginners, because it they did not like the answers given. I call that the denial syndrome. I got that a lot when I first started, still have it from time to time but I can manage now .
My very first time I showed my awesome first "stick in pot" bonsai [ no taper, no ramification, no nebari, only primary branches, 1 cm thick trunk all the way through, no movement ] on a thread and asked full of confidence on some advice, and the only answers I got was "Put it in the ground! Its too thin, it lacks taper, it need to grow more..." just all the answers I was not prepared to hear. End result, I just viewed those good ideas as negative criticism and plainly ignored them... I managed to get over it but I've seen a lot of newbs introduce themselves, show their tree and just run away when the suggestions just did not tally with their conception of what a bonsai is or what it needs to be done.

I still have that stick in a pot in the ground for now