I think I have a nice stump

[Graft]

This is another of my £25 untrained bonsai purchases. It is a hawthorn. I would like some clarification on what I need to do in Spring. I believe I need to make an angular cut above a new leader and direct that new leader to the angle I wish it to go. When I do this do I leave the other branches as they are or do I prune them. I know this is probably a fifteen year project but I would like to start off on the right foot. When growing a trunk like this are the other branches just left to grow or do we try to keep them tidy. Any Clarification / Advice on my stump will be very much appreciated.

 

[HorseloverFat]

Nice.. I love Hawthorns.. when they are healthy they just EXPLODE growth.

With a stump of this size and the resulting wound of your first prune (If you decide to do so), I would think that one of the main difficulties you will experience, other than the wound itself (just pick a front and angle your prune to hide it, once again IF this is what you decide to do ) will be the transition from the meatier trunk into the new leader/new trunkline.. and it will resemble... a hangnail for a number of years until things “even out” (I would think.. could be WAY wrong)...

So if it were ME... I would make a plan and perpetuate my first “moves” to set me up for success this upcoming spring.

But after looking harder... this trunk has enough elegantly light movement that your initial prune would’nt even need to be too severe... just (in this theoretical plan) down to that top right cluster of branches in the second picture, not much off the top at all.. but essentially making a very light reduction and REcutting for aesthetics.. this is an option (once again.. not sure if what I’m saying is even a good idea )

Buuut if it were mine... I’d prune LOWER.. I’d prune now... and i’d prune to hide the wound.. (but once again.. I tend to insight tomfoolery)



Nice tree! I’m a jealousy-filled doughnut.

 

[BobbyLane]

This is another of my £25 untrained bonsai purchases. It is a hawthorn. I would like some clarification on what I need to do in Spring. I believe I need to make an angular cut above a new leader and direct that new leader to the angle I wish it to go. When I do this do I leave the other branches as they are or do I prune them. I know this is probably a fifteen year project but I would like to start off on the right foot. When growing a trunk like this are the other branches just left to grow or do we try to keep them tidy. Any Clarification / Advice on my stump will be very much appreciated.

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being in Yorkshire i think our resident Yorkshire lad @Paulpash would be able to give you good advice on this and he has experience with raw Hawthorns.
you need to have a look at the base, we build trees from the bottom up. find your potential front. determine what kind of style you like, are you happy to showcase wounds and scars, bits of deadwood or do your prefer to seal or hide wounds, this is going to have a big wound after chopping and hawthorn are not known to heal very well. some things to think about

 

[Graft]

Nice.. I love Hawthorns.. when they are healthy they just EXPLODE growth.

With a stump of this size and the resulting wound of your first prune (If you decide to do so), I would think that one of the main difficulties you will experience, other than the wound itself (just pick a front and angle your prune to hide it, once again IF this is what you decide to do ) will be the transition from the meatier trunk into the new leader/new trunkline.. and it will resemble... a hangnail for a number of years until things “even out” (I would think.. could be WAY wrong)...

So if it were ME... I would make a plan and perpetuate my first “moves” to set me up for success this upcoming spring.

But after looking harder... this trunk has enough elegantly light movement that your initial prune would’nt even need to be too severe... just (in this theoretical plan) down to that top right cluster of branches in the second picture, not much off the top at all.. but essentially making a very light reduction and REcutting for aesthetics.. this is an option (once again.. not sure if what I’m saying is even a good idea )

Buuut if it were mine... I’d prune LOWER.. I’d prune now... and i’d prune to hide the wound.. (but once again.. I tend to insight tomfoolery)



Nice tree! I’m a jealousy-filled doughnut.

How LOW would you go. Please note that we are coming to end of summer here in the UK, so not sure what the bonsai bible says about heavy cuts now??

 

[sorce]

I hate golf. But I would rather see a golf ball there than a tennis ball. Though I believe this is only because I recently saw a lot of golf balls while fishing and digging for clay. I have probably found am equal amount of tennis balls. But the tennis balls are always there because people are JUST lazy. The golf balls actually get lost in the river.

I wouldn't make an angle but straight away.

My knowledge of Hawthorne goes only as far a a a bunch of dead seedlings from this winter, but usually, it better to straight cut, wait for the "dieback line" and cut back to it.
Usually the dieback line is on a nice angle, perfect to cut back to.

In This way, trees do wish to be pretty.

Sorce

 

[Graft]

being in Yorkshire i think our resident Yorkshire lad @Paulpash would be able to give you good advice on this and he has experience with raw Hawthorns.
you need to have a look at the base, we build trees from the bottom up. find your potential front. determine what kind of style you like, are you happy to showcase wounds and scars, bits of deadwood or do your prefer to seal or hide wounds, this is going to have a big wound after chopping and hawthorn are not known to heal very well. some things to think about

Thanks for the info @BobbyLane. I don't mind showing scars "too" much. I'm a beginner at this so not really found what I really like or not. I just know I quite like this stump and don't want to mess it up too badly!! I've tried to look on @Paulpash account but he has restricted his account. The front will either be pic 1 or pic 3. I'm leaning more towards pic 3 as it hides a chop. and looks nicely curved.

 

[Graft]

I hate golf. But I would rather see a golf ball there than a tennis ball. Though I believe this is only because I recently saw a lot of golf balls while fishing and digging for clay. I have probably found am equal amount of tennis balls. But the tennis balls are always there because people are JUST lazy. The golf balls actually get lost in the river.

I wouldn't make an angle but straight away.

My knowledge of Hawthorne goes only as far a a a bunch of dead seedlings from this winter, but usually, it better to straight cut, wait for the "dieback line" and cut back to it.
Usually the dieback line is on a nice angle, perfect to cut back to.

In This way, trees do wish to be pretty.

Sorce

I think the chop was done last winter, how long does it take to get a dieback line??

 

[HorseloverFat]

I hate golf. But I would rather see a golf ball there than a tennis ball. Though I believe this is only because I recently saw a lot of golf balls while fishing and digging for clay. I have probably found am equal amount of tennis balls. But the tennis balls are always there because people are JUST lazy. The golf balls actually get lost in the river.

I wouldn't make an angle but straight away.

My knowledge of Hawthorne goes only as far a a a bunch of dead seedlings from this winter, but usually, it better to straight cut, wait for the "dieback line" and cut back to it.
Usually the dieback line is on a nice angle, perfect to cut back to.

In This way, trees do wish to be pretty.

Sorce

This is good information... I did not know this.

Thank you, friend.

 

[Graft]

@sorce I do have plenty of golf balls!!

 

[HorseloverFat]

@sorce I do have plenty of golf balls!!

I had friends that played golf! ... They never let ME play.

I did get to whip around in the golf carts, though... Singing Bob Dylan at the top of my lungs...

Watching my friend look around at other golfers.. acting as if he didn’t know me.

I miss that dude.. RIP

 

[sorce]

I think the chop was done last winter, how long does it take to get a dieback line??

First....let me go back on the "dieback" thing and call it a "regrowth line".
More positive that way.

If we think about what the tree wants/needs, we see that it will begin to "callous" around where the Deadwood will creep back into. This position will only be pretty of we assist it's cleaning and healing over.

The tree only needs that section of itself to remain intact enough for it to grow elsewhere, without worrying about it rotting thru there.

We must take advantage of this situation, whenever it comes, and remove the Deadwood it would normally not be able to heal over itself, so it can heal over to that nice "Bonsai" transition.

I want to say the window is large, but I'm afraid this is only applicable if you are vigilantly observing daily.

We all should have daily vigilant observance.

Sorce

 

[HorseloverFat]

First...call it a "regrowth line".
More positive that way.


We all should have daily vigilant observance.

Well stated.... Dobles aqui!

 

[Graft]

First....let me go back on the "dieback" thing and call it a "regrowth line".
More positive that way.

If we think about what the tree wants/needs, we see that it will begin to "callous" around where the Deadwood will creep back into. This position will only be pretty of we assist it's cleaning and healing over.

The tree only needs that section of itself to remain intact enough for it to grow elsewhere, without worrying about it rotting thru there.

We must take advantage of this situation, whenever it comes, and remove the Deadwood it would normally not be able to heal over itself, so it can heal over to that nice "Bonsai" transition.

I want to say the window is large, but I'm afraid this is only applicable if you are vigilantly observing daily.

We all should have daily vigilant observance.

Sorce

Great info @sorce. I will keep my beady on it.

 

[Paulpash]

Firstly, do you have a vision for what you want to achieve? If you don't I'd encourage you to sketch it out if you are a beginner even if it's a basic stick drawing - it'll remind you of the front, shape & final height. Get it out of the pot in March, just before bud burst and brush away the soil, exposing the roots. If it's rubbish substrate I'd swap it for something inorganic and free draining. Use the base to find the best front and mark it. I use 2 pieces of thick wire pushed in the soil. Line em up and you have marked the front.

Eventual height plays a big part in terms of where to chop - a small squat, powerful tree usually has tighter and more frequent movement than a taller tree. Taller trees take longer to build as there are more trunk sections and more chops.

It's next to impossible to recommend chop points from a 2D photo, especially when you have not finalised a design. My recommendation is to get a sharp saw and cut horizontally straight across once you've decided on a plan. If you leave the roots alone this year you will get a mass of backbuds and you can select which one is best to continue the trunk line for your next trunk section or you can use an existing shoot and chop there.

In a year or two when the new leader is much stronger and thicker you can then look at a sloping cut and / or carving to disguise the chop point. If you don't like carving or seeing chop points think of slanting the cut off to the back or side so it's not in your face front and centre.

My recommendation is to get some wire on your existing branches so there's some nice movement on them. Hawthorn have a naturally angular growth but your trunk has a nice bend to it. Try to echo this in the branches. When it flushes out next Spring apply thin aluminium wire as the new growth / stems turn purple.

Hawthorn are amazing in that you could literally cut it as low as you want and it will respond by popping buds off the trunk. However, they don't like their roots to be messed with too often so be more conservative when doing root work. Hope this helps!

 

[HorseloverFat]

encourage you to sketch it out if you are a beginner even if it's a basic stick drawing -

This practice is IMMENSELY beneficial.

 

[Graft]

Firstly, do you have a vision for what you want to achieve? If you don't I'd encourage you to sketch it out if you are a beginner even if it's a basic stick drawing - it'll remind you of the front, shape & final height. Get it out of the pot in March, just before bud burst and brush away the soil, exposing the roots. If it's rubbish substrate I'd swap it for something inorganic and free draining. Use the base to find the best front and mark it. I use 2 pieces of thick wire pushed in the soil. Line em up and you have marked the front.

Eventual height plays a big part in terms of where to chop - a small squat, powerful tree usually has tighter and more frequent movement than a taller tree. Taller trees take longer to build as there are more trunk sections and more chops.

It's next to impossible to recommend chop points from a 2D photo, especially when you have not finalised a design. My recommendation is to get a sharp saw and cut horizontally straight across once you've decided on a plan. If you leave the roots alone this year you will get a mass of backbuds and you can select which one is best to continue the trunk line for your next trunk section or you can use an existing shoot and chop there.

In a year or two when the new leader is much stronger and thicker you can then look at a sloping cut and / or carving to disguise the chop point. If you don't like carving or seeing chop points think of slanting the cut off to the back or side so it's not in your face front and centre.

My recommendation is to get some wire on your existing branches so there's some nice movement on them. Hawthorn have a naturally angular growth but your trunk has a nice bend to it. Try to echo this in the branches. When it flushes out next Spring apply thin aluminium wire as the new growth / stems turn purple.

Hawthorn are amazing in that you could literally cut it as low as you want and it will respond by popping buds off the trunk. However, they don't like their roots to be messed with too often so be more conservative when doing root work. Hope this helps!

Hi Paul,

Lots info to absorb there. Many thanks for the great advice. I have two plans for the tree. Either chop it only a bit and use the foliage to make a canopy with movement to the right, as a single canopy, a short powerful tree. Or use one of the leaders that is already there and grow it on from there. I figure if I start with the short option and that doesn't work I can always go to option 2. I will post a couple of drawings tomorrow. So far all I've done is slip pot it to allow the roots to get a grow on. Thanks again to everyone for all the brain overload, lovin' it.

 

[vp999]

I am very jealous of your stump lol

 

[Potawatomi13]

Is that reverse taper at the base? Personally avoid thorn trees like a plague.

 

[Graft]

Is that reverse taper at the base? Personally avoid thorn trees like a plague.

Yes there is a small bit of reverse taper. I will probably ground layer it at a later date, once I know more of what I'm doing. The thorns don't bother me too much. I have been spiked a couple of times though.

 

[Graft]

So my 2 rough ideas.

Firstly canopy style. There is a branch that goes straight up the side of the tree which can be wired out to make the first major branch.



Ideas 2 is a curved trunk.

#

Please forgive the crudeness of the drawings.