Ideas for a JBP

[Shibui]

I've been reluctant to start autumn shoot and needle reduction on this JBP. Kept telling myself it was just because it is big and would take some time. Maybe it is because this one has problems and needs more than just routine maintenance?

It is one of my early pines. Because I had no access to information these early pines got away - long, bare branches with tufts of needles at the ends. By the time I recognised the problem and found a solution it was a long, 10 year road to recovery.
Now I have some good growth close enough to the trunk to work with. This one has had one makeover a few years ago but there still seems to be some issues.
Let's see what some of you think.

Before any work a few days ago


After thinning and wiring the lower branches


closer look


One of the issues have is that the current apex leans a long way forward. I've already tipped the tree as far back as the nebari will allow. Any further tilt to the rear will completely bury and rear roots.
Side view


back


Side


Current front with a little reduction on the hanging right branch to better define layers.

As it is now



The current rear branch offers some possibility of removing the taller part of the trunk. I've put a turnbuckle on the horizontal part ( red area) to bring it down to a back branch position and I think it would be possible to move the upright part of that branch (blue circle) further toward the front as a possible replacement apex if the current trunk was removed. That would give a substantial reduction in height but would it skew the width - height too far?

The current lower back branch is quite long and bare but twisted and bent to reduce effective length. No problem to get rid of that one if required.

I can also see at least one other option but maybe too radical?

I know it is difficult to give good styling advice because 2D photos don't give a decent look at all the movement and positions but if anyone feels like offering constructive opinions and options I'd really like to hear.
You won't have to live with the results so let's hear your ideas.

Happy to do further photos if there's something that would help with your ideas.

 

[Adair M]

A couple of things:

1) you could tilt this tree back. A lot! It doesn’t matter that you will “bury the nebari”. This kind of thing is done and the tree will adapt with new rootage over time.

2). It looks to me that the wire you are using to wire the main and secondary branches is just too thin to be effective. You have lots of branches at poor angles, than need to be moved. Heavy wire, and likely assisted with guy wires are called for! You may enlist the assistance of a jack to help you make some bends.

3). Tree placement in the pot. Looking at your tree from the side, I see that the tree is potted behind the centerline. When viewed from the side, the tree would be on the centerline. This give the roots in the back more room. And helps keep them healthy. In the old books, it was advised to plant farther to the rear, and father to one side or the other. That old method has proven to be faulty, as trees have developed poor root systems as a result. Today’s approach, having trees much more centered, is far better for the long term health of the tree.

I think you can “crunch” this tree quite a bit and develop something with a lot of character with wire and guy wires.

Good luck!

 

[sorce]

It looks like a pine.

If you want to make it look like a bonsai pine....



Sorce

 

[MrWunderful]

I think the apex needs to go. Easy to say as its not my tree, but the bare taperless section that ends in a big fluff of foliage looks too disconnected. Maybe if its thinned out a bit, with some lower branches brought down to eat up some of that bare trunk.

 

[0soyoung]

1) you could tilt this tree back. A lot! It doesn’t matter that you will “bury the nebari”. This kind of thing is done and the tree will adapt with new rootage over time.

I agree with what @Adair M said, and with this point in particular.
It can imagine it creating trouble with the branch 1 & 2 pads, though - they can be lowered only so far and could limit how much it can be tilted back.

 

[BackyardBonsai]

It looks like a pine.

If you want to make it look like a bonsai pine....

View attachment 293156

Sorce

I think this version would look good in a couple year. I like the less is more in this virt.

 

[sorce]

would look good in a couple year.

Especially with the skills @Shibui possesses.

Sorce

 

[Forsoothe!]

The top is pretty crowded, can you pull some of the top down into the space above the blue circle? I know conventional wisdom is to pull everything down, down, down, but the front views (the 1st & 2nd pics) look pretty nice to me. It's hard for me to see why you're doing/considering catastrophic work on the rear of the tree which I don't like the view of anyway. Are you going to swap fronts?

 

[Shibui]

1) you could tilt this tree back. A lot! It doesn’t matter that you will “bury the nebari”. This kind of thing is done and the tree will adapt with new rootage over time.

I was not concerned for the health of the tree. More about aesthetics and practicality. This one has already been tilted back quite a bit. You may be able to see that the roots in front are already high while there are none visible at the back. I can't remember what the rear roots were like but there could easily be some big ones that will probably already be close to the bottom of the pot. It would be worth a look at repotting time in spring.

Tree placement in the pot. Looking at your tree from the side, I see that the tree is potted behind the centerline. When viewed from the side, the tree would be on the centerline. This give the roots in the back more room. And helps keep them healthy. In the old books, it was advised to plant farther to the rear, and father to one side or the other. That old method has proven to be faulty, as trees have developed poor root systems as a result. Today’s approach, having trees much more centered, is far better for the long term health of the tree.

Thanks for pointing this out. I normally try to put trees close to the mid line so I am not sure why this one is now so far back. Could be tick roots in front or maybe I was trying to compensate for the trunk leaning forward so much. Again, something for me to check in spring.

It looks to me that the wire you are using to wire the main and secondary branches is just too thin to be effective. You have lots of branches at poor angles, than need to be moved. Heavy wire, and likely assisted with guy wires are called for! You may enlist the assistance of a jack to help you make some bends.

You are probably right about some of the wire. It is what I have on hand at the moment and it appears to be doing what I asked of it though.
I would be interested to see which branches have poor angles in your opinion. You will need to bear in mind that many of them have previously been compressed to reduce length. Some can be moved , others might be more of a challenge. There is certainly potential to lower some or all of the upper branches as most f those are younger. I've already started to jack down a rear branch but have pulled it as far as I'm comfortable in a single go without undercutting. I believe it will move further when it has had a chance to relax a little.

It looks like a pine.

If you want to make it look like a bonsai pine....

That is the option I mentioned in the intro. As I was working on it I kept coming back to just that first branch.........
It means taking off a lot of tree. The trunk above that branch is 2" diameter. It also means losing that great, wild up and down branch on the right. I really do like the concept when I look at the tree. It looks even better in the bark but there will be much soul searching before I take that step. there's no going back after that sort of surgery.

 

[sorce]

soul searching

Amen!

I was hoping there might be a layer possibility, someway to save the rest.

Sure it might not work....but....

Sorce

 

[Shibui]

I've done some more work without actually committing to any particular future yet.

In an attempt to retain the current trunk I've pulled it back and across a little using a steel bar to pull against.

I should be able to move it a bit further after the cells relax a bit after this initial bending. Will that be enough to save the top?



Backup plan is to remove the upper part of the trunk and use part of the back branch as a new apex. You can see that I've wired it up in preparation for that possibility. It is in a good position and should allow the trunk to be tipped forward again to even up the nebari.



Second backup is the first branch which Sorce pointed out.
Nice semicascade tree with a small apex and massive thick trunk and maybe some jin from the remains of the current trunk. I'm reluctant to lose that wild, nonconforming right branch though.

 

[MichaelS]

You have lots of branches at poor angles, than need to be moved.

Rubbish. Lots of good angles.