If You Are Serious About Bonsai

[JasonG]

I couldn't agree more with Peters statement!! YES, YES and YES!

I'm sorry, your question misses the major points given in this debate.

I think a better question would be, do you agree that quality material, no matter where it is found or at what price, is necessary for creating quality bonsai. (We won't get into the fact that without talent, the best material in the world won't help you.)

However, I do not generally agree and will explain at another time, once all my ducks are in a row...
Will

Geezzzzz Will that has to be the longest NO I have ever seen

The door is always open Dwight no matter what the purpose of the visit is. Your Alaska cruise is sounds nice....thank god the highlight will be Grouper and NW Bonsai .

BTW don't forget Paul Reed Smith Guitars

And don't forget about Oregon Bonsai!!! That will be the highlight and we have lots of koi dealers/breeders in the area.

The question is skewed. There are more than two choices in obtaining material but only one is being eliminated; Nursery material. This question cannot be honestly answered any other way than the way the many that have preceded this simple remark have responded. This question by itself almost falls into the category of Have you stopped beating your wife? Yes or No?

What are the other choices? You have nursery material and collected. Wouldn't nurserey material consist of box stores and bonsai nurseries? Oh, I did forget field grown material for bonsai....

Peters statement is made coming from areas that do not play with nursery material like America does. Europe.....mostly awesome yamadori......Japan..... mostly awesome yamadori and field grown trees. If you take the exposre that Peter has had since introduced to bonsai it has been nothing but killer material. That is why Europe and Japan are light years ahead of us here in the US.
I would agree with Peter in that if you want the absolute best bonsai it isn't through nursery stock.

FWIW, Jason

 

[agraham]

Atilla....I took his statement about thin junipers to mean that westerners(and,I assume he meant Americans particularly) think that the thin garden center juniper is the best material to create good bonsai from.I think the most of the advanced bonsai practitioners in America know that not to be true.So...that is not where we are.Fixated was a poor choice of words on my part.

As far as nursery material being worthless material for creating the best bonsai....I disagree vehemently.Most of you come from the perspective that old gnarled collected conifers are the best in the world.I personally much and I mean MUCH prefer the ficus being grown in Taiwan.And some in Florida and some scheffleras in Hawaii.Sorry....but that is my preference.While I doubt if these were grown from what what we would commonly call "garden center" material,they very well could have been.And,I would bet that the ficus I admire the most were not collected from the wild.Rather,I imagine they were grown from seed or cuttings and their bonsai training could have begun when they were not much more than 1 gallon or smaller common nursery stock. .

While I have a great deal of respect and admiration for venerable old trees...they are not(to me) the only form or even the best form of bonsai.

So....I disagree with his statement.In general though...I agree with the idea that many westerners settle for less than the best in their own bonsai....even some who consider themselves experts and teachers.

andy

 

[Dav4]

...yes....

 

[Attila Soos]

Based on what exactly?

Based on your personal opinion, you need to decide if you agree with him or not. But you already answered.

 

[Attila Soos]

14 Yes
3 No

The numbers speak for themselves. The Yes's are winning by knock-out, so far.

 

[Chris Johnston]

Sorry I miscounted, I must have thought my vote should count twice...and maybe it should!

 

[Attila Soos]

I imagine they were grown from seed or cuttings and their bonsai training could have begun when they were not much more than 1 gallon or smaller common nursery stock. .

You are absolutely right. Those ficus (fices??) had a bonsai training from the very beginning.
Although I don't want to stray from the current vote count, but in my opening post in this thread, when I quoted Peter, you can see that Peter himself metioned that growing from seed is better than using a ten gallon nursery plant material. He mentions Bill Valavanis, who also grows bonsai from seedlings, and after 20 years, he has great success.

Please note, that in the quote from Peter that we are debating, it says "ten gallon material". Ten gallon materials (or five gallon, for that matter), usually have faults that are just too advanced to make it worthwhile correcting them.

Now, if you go down to one gallon materials, that is practically almost a seedling. At that level, the plant is like a blank canvas, the faults are not too advanced, and you can plant it back into the ground and make it into whatever you want. But you just need to know at that point, that you are not really doing bonsai, but growing a plant for material, for the next decade or two.

But right now, we are talking about bonsai material, ready for the first styling, and then creating a top tree within the foreseable future. This is what "practicing bonsai at the highest level" means.

 

[ianb]

Peters statement is made coming from areas that do not play with nursery material like America does. Europe.....mostly awesome yamadori......Japan..... mostly awesome yamadori and field grown trees. If you take the exposre that Peter has had since introduced to bonsai it has been nothing but killer material. That is why Europe and Japan are light years ahead of us here in the US.
I would agree with Peter in that if you want the absolute best bonsai it isn't through nursery stock.

FWIW, Jason

Oh there are plenty in Europe who play with nursery material, you just don't see too many of them in Gingko. Plus in the past 10 years (in the UK at least) or so many more people are making a serious effort to improve their collection. This in turn leads to more quality trees being available in bonsai nurseries, just check out Steve Tolley and Graham Potters site.

I can understand when people have limited access and funds etc means they have to make the best of what is available at local plant nurseries and sure some of these trees in time will be pretty nice bonsai in the hands of experienced practitioners. But that is no reason to keep on insisting this is the best way.

Cheers
Ian

 

[No it's not...]

I'd have to vote no, but I won't live long enough to see that RNM become bonsai of the highest class so I only use yamadori (conifers).

 

[Dwight]

And don't forget about Oregon Bonsai!!! That will be the highlight and we have lots of koi dealers/breeders in the area.
, Jason

Darn , another invite ! I almost feel the love. How far are you from Seattle ?

 

[ianb]

Darn , another invite ! I almost feel the love. How far are you from Seattle ?

Not as far as they are from Baltimore and I'm going to see them at the end of the month. I am so looking forward to it, but my wallet already feels lighter.

 

[Dwight]

I am sooooo jealous !!!!!!! But I don't think Rich will let me on the property. Where exactly in Oregon are they ?

 

[Dale Cochoy]

I'm curious, Is there a time limit for voting in this poll to see who agrees with Peter Warrens interview opinion?
Dale

 

[ianb]

I am sooooo jealous !!!!!!! But I don't think Rich will let me on the property. Where exactly in Oregon are they ?

He says about an hour from Portland airport, I can't wait. After that it is down to the Shohin symposium in CA.

 

[AndyWilson]

its a No from me

 

[Behr]

I too must give this question a "no" vote...While I agree with the latter part of the statement, the first part is a bit difficult to accept from my view point...If one is only attempting to do bonsai according to "Japanese" standards, then I can certainly understand why this statement would be true...Not only true but getting worse as time passes...

Regards
Behr

 

[Dwight]

Is there a difference between the way a professional ( this doesn't mean you make your living this way ) and a hobbyest would view this question ?

 

[rlist]

I am sooooo jealous !!!!!!! But I don't think Rich will let me on the property. Where exactly in Oregon are they ?

Now you are just being silly. You know the basis of my arguement was the intense desire to window shop stock. Showing up in Portland is taking it to the next level of seriousness and you (and everyone else) is more than welcome to come out and buy trees.

 

[Vance Wood]

rlist:

Do you have any images of your own personal trees posted anywhere on this site so I can see what you consider the best stock for your own preferences? I once had a bonsai grower who claimed more than twenty years experience and his own bonsai business say he could get some really good ficus for a work shop. What he claimed and what he delivered were two completely different things, and in quality--- as far as East from West.

 

[Anonymous User]

Vance,


Rich has some collected pines for sale on his site you can see http://www.oregonbonsai.com/collectedtrees.html and some here http://www.oregonbonsai.com/inspirationalyamadori.html



Will