If You Are Serious About Bonsai

[Anonymous User]

Will and Chris (or as to not offend either of you Chris and Will)

Shut your pie holes.

I reserve my right to respond. Period.

You are intelligent enough to see the truth, but not brave enough to say it publicly?

This crap has been going on since I joined and a handful of BT'ers migrated over here and started the same old crap that went on there. Same people, same crap, not a damn new thing at all.

Not to offend but, there are many other active threads on the forum, why read one that upsets you so much? If you don't like what is on TV, change the channel, don't set there screaming at the screen.....most people can't help it, it's like a car wreck, just look at the number of views for this thread.....they all want to jump in and say a few words from the sidelines, like the guys at a boxing match, loving the blood, loving screaming out how the fighters should fight, shouting out advice, experts all of them, and all the time talking like they are civilized.


Will

 

[Anonymous User]

To the rest of you - don't do it. Don't quote this message and jump on what I have said (either agreeing or disagreeing).

I Love You Graydon!
Mom

Well that worked.



Dad

 

[Anonymous User]

Will,
I really think you are the one who is obsessed. Everything from the first page to "plain meaning" was trying to have a decent conversation.
A. Get over yourself
B. Thicken your skin up a little.

And again, you focus on me.....At least come up with an original statement, as opposed to re-using what I have pointed out about you.



Again, in response,


Will

 

[Asus101]

Will, it looks like chris has been baiting you, and you unwittingly have biten time and time again. For someone with many accomplishments and as revered in the art you should know better than to take bait from anyone

 

[Anonymous User]

Will, it looks like chris has been baiting you, and you unwittingly have biten time and time again.

Wow, intelligence is alive and well...


....except, don't fool yourself Asus, there is very little "unwitting" about me.




Will

 

[BonsaiWes]

I reserve my right to respond. Period.

You are intelligent enough to see the truth, but not brave enough to say it publicly?

This crap has been going on since I joined and a handful of BT'ers migrated over here and started the same old crap that went on there. Same people, same crap, not a damn new thing at all.




Will

Just for the record I haven't been involved in one of these Bonsainut fights since May 2007. Not arguing with Will was kind of hard to stop at first, he is just so inviting, but I saw the light and quit doing it cold turkey. Will, take my advice and stop arguing with these guys. The second you stop caring about it is the second it all goes away. Think about the 20 minutes you spent replying to someones last character attack, that is 20 min you will never get back, 20 min you had to spend being aggressive rather than smiling. Save all that energy for the new spring on it's way.

Also anyone besides myself notice that like 98% of the fighting at Bonsaitalk has stopped over the past year? I wonder what happened to all the spit & vinegar that was so common there?

 

[AndyWilson]

The second you stop caring about it is the second it all goes away. Think about the 20 minutes you spent replying to someones last character attack, that is 20 min you will never get back, 20 min you had to spend being aggressive rather than smiling.

Also anyone besides myself notice that like 98% of the fighting at Bonsaitalk has stopped over the past year? I wonder what happened to all the spit & vinegar that was so common there?

Like the first bit, you hit the nail on the head, perhaps the line at the bottom isnt neccesary though?

 

[BonsaiWes]

Like the first bit, you hit the nail on the head, perhaps the line at the bottom isnt neccesary though?

Hi,

Not sure I am seeing what is wrong with the last line here?

 

[AndyWilson]

Hey Wes, i may be reading wrong here

Just that you say you want to move away from the fights, that line has the potential to move you back into the very same fight you were trying to get away from?

Hey its early and i havent had a cup of coffee yet, maybe i am wrong!

 

[Anonymous User]

Also anyone besides myself notice that like 98% of the fighting at Bonsaitalk has stopped over the past year? I wonder what happened to all the spit & vinegar that was so common there?

It came over here.


Very perceptive Wes, and wise too.





Will

 

[Graydon]

I was not going to respond to this at all. As the day went on I reconsidered.

I reserve my right to respond. Period.

Fine - and I reserve my right to tell you and Chris to shut your pie holes. Period.

You are intelligent enough to see the truth, but not brave enough to say it publicly?

I just said the truth Will. We can start a poll if you would like but I would bet my membership here on the fact that most members want the bickering to stop. We don't care what or why, just stop.

I think I will create a poll in the Karaoke Bar area just for grins... can we start polls here?

Yes, I do remember our PM conversations about some of the issues. As far as I am concerned those were private between you and I and they can stay that way. I meant what I said in those PMs Will.

This crap has been going on since I joined and a handful of BT'ers migrated over here and started the same old crap that went on there. Same people, same crap, not a damn new thing at all.

Fine. I can agree with that. So the question is who will be the bigger (or better) person and just stop? You and Chris are talented and contribute much. Focus on that.

Not to offend but, there are many other active threads on the forum, why read one that upsets you so much? If you don't like what is on TV, change the channel, don't set there screaming at the screen.....most people can't help it, it's like a car wreck, just look at the number of views for this thread.....they all want to jump in and say a few words from the sidelines, like the guys at a boxing match, loving the blood, loving screaming out how the fighters should fight, shouting out advice, experts all of them, and all the time talking like they are civilized.

Please don't go there Will. I have been an advocate of ignoring things but I'm tired or ignoring stuff that needs to stop. Did you ever think that I kept checking this thread to see if there were more responses by Walter? More genuine discussion about "if you are serious about bonsai"? Sorry, but there is no filter to let me know if crap was posted or genuine discussion. I got agitated. I'm human. Please notice I have not attacked anyone. I have simply laid out my opinion and have tried to do it as respectful as I can. I'm not so smart and can't really compose great rebuttals so...

If you want to discuss this more I would be happy to do so, but I would prefer to use the PM function or email. You have my email address right? If not I would be happy to send it to you. Email is far easier than the PM system.

Have a great day.

 

[Dale Cochoy]

"Will and Chris (or as to not offend either of you Chris and Will)
Shut your pie holes. "

and so it goes on...
Graydon and all, this has all been said before. I distinctly remember saying it MYSELF and going through it myself before and coming out looking worse on WWW than the perpetrators. PM's don't work, talk in chat doesn't work. Nothing seems to work. It goes on. Some people just CANNOT give it up or realize they can't win a thread-fight. They just can't stop!!!! They just WILL NOT SHUT UP! It's just toooooo easy to take a snipe at someone from behind a computer screen. You were right that one of the things nice about this site is the lack of a group moderating force ( or 2 as in another group) but there IS a moderator here, it's BNut. I have told him via PM's , as I'm sure others have, that he needs to correct the "Fight Site" syndrom that has been created here. Yes, the fighting has migrated here from BT ( a good thing for BT) Why? Well Will CAN'T go there anymore, and Chris has no one to fight with there ( if he did he would be moded'). There is one other reason IMO but I won't get into that. Has anyone else noted that there are only a handful of people who post here to any extent, great or small? Sure fights are like a train wreck, everyone wants to stop and look, and keep driving by to look again. Thats human nature, but, there is NOTHING good about it. I've never been a proponent of the "if you don't like the channel then change it" scenario. Folks thats not the answer, the ANSWER is to IMPROVE THE CONTENT. Besides it's getting to the point here where changing the channel just brings you to another fight. Wes' comment about the 20 minutes spent typing a new snipe over and over every day really hits home, likewise reading these snipes is SUCH a waste of time and slowly, person by person, one bonsai enthusiast at a time will become the watching crowd, not bothering to post, then not bothering to read. That is as much human nature as wanting to watch a wreck! These guys WILL NOT stop by themselves, so someone in charge needs to stop them, and that is BNut! These fights have little to do with bonsai, if anything at all, so why allow them. BNut.....put a stop to it before all that is left are 10 people to come here and fight, and 50 to come and watch!
Dale

P.S. Graydon, I think we were typing at the same time and thinking the exact same thoughts!

 

[Anonymous User]

A guy drags a dog into the vets office, drags the dog up to the counter and says that he wants the dog put to sleep.

The receptionists looks at the guy and notices he has both legs, both arms, and both hands all bandaged up and asks him if he was in an accident.

The guy says no, the damn dog keeps biting him. Every night the dog bites him and he is sick and tired of it so he wants the dog dealt with, put to sleep, he wants it to end now. He said his wife is sick of bandaging him up all the time, the Doctor is sick of giving him stitches, his kids are sick of hearing him complain, and the neighbors all all sick of hearing him screaming.

The receptionist asks him how long this has been going on and the guy says it has been like this for ever it seems and he is sick of it, his wife is tired of it, the kids want it to end, and the neighbors have started a petition to have it end as well. The dog has to put down, that's all there is to it.

The receptionist asks the guy if he knew why the dog bites him all the time.

The guy says he has no idea, every night he comes home, kicks the dog, and the dog just bites him for no reason at all......




So, let's all hold hands, tell each other we love one another and teach the dog just to lay there and take the kicks, after all it takes a bigger dog not to bite.

Or we can repeat history and just kill the dog.

Better yet, Graydon, Dale, just sit back and let some make snide innuendos about you, bait you both, hint that you are unintelligent, untalented, bloated, you smell, and are constipated, and you two can show us how to ignore such tripe while we interrupt any discussion you attempt to have with such annoying crap and tear down anything you post or anything you attempt to accomplish. Now, let us do it for a couple years......we can run some background checks, post untruths about you on forums you can't respond at, email anyone you do business with and feed them the same garbage, write your publishers, organazations you belong to, clubs, even the places you shop. We'll create a blog or two with the sole intent of trying to defame you, write bnut a zillion pms trying to get you banned, and after a couple years...we'll expect you to let us say or do anything we want without a word from you at all.


Take away the offense and you'll never see my defense. I respond, although I would certainly be justified in doing more, that's it, I respond.






Will

 

[Rick Moquin]

shaking head...

undoubtedly there is something between Chris and yourself, but why is it that the sites where you no longer participate can exchange in a quiet at times heated debate, with or without Chris there? What is the common denominator?

I'm going to be blunt here, if 9 out of 10 people think I am anal, chances are I probably am, as they cannot all be wrong.

You have much to contribute, but please let go of "I'm the victim". We have been following your footsteps too long to be swayed by such comments.

 

[Anonymous User]

shaking head...
undoubtedly there is something between Chris and yourself, but why is it that the sites where you no longer participate can exchange in a quiet at times heated debate, with or without Chris there? What is the common denominator?

Hmmm, boy this is a tough one....because I can't defend myself there? Becuase I am not there for him to throw out his cute little remarks at?

Here's a question for you, why does this crap not happen at AoB, KoB, or IBC where Chris and I are both members? I'll tell you, because such off topic bashing and baiting would never be allowed. It happens here because it is allowed to happen, same thing I said during Chris's outright attacks when he first joined here.

You have much to contribute, but please let go of "I'm the victim". We have been following your footsteps too long to be swayed by such comments.

Sway this.....show me where I instigated one of these blowouts and I'll give it up right here and now. Put your money where your sway is?



Will

 

[Anonymous User]

I've said all I wanted too, most likely too much.

In the interest of ending this last blowout, I will bite my lip and say no more.

Dale thanks for the intelligent words, let's hope I'm intelligent enough to heed them.



Will

 

[Dwight]

What was this thread about ? I've gone to sleep twice reading it and can't remember. Oh , obtaining stock....... As a self confessed ignoramous ( which Rich so correctly pointed out a while ago ) and permanent beginner may I make a comment. Would it be considered a trueism that if someone like me ( who lives 750 mi from the nearest bonsai store ) went into a GOOD bonsai nursery with , say $500 to spend and found the propriator , asked him to help me pick out the best tree for a relative newbe for less than $500 that I would stand a better chance of obtaining a tree I might have some success with than if I went to Lowes and spent the whole day on my knees , digging in pots. Notice , I never said it was an absolute truth but wouldn't I be more successful say with Brent , Rich or someone like that there ? Just another dumb question from a beginner who is also tired of the off topic bickering.

Carry on

 

[Chris Johnston]

What was this thread about ? I've gone to sleep twice reading it and can't remember. Oh , obtaining stock....... As a self confessed ignoramous ( which Rich so correctly pointed out a while ago ) and permanent beginner may I make a comment. Would it be considered a trueism that if someone like me ( who lives 750 mi from the nearest bonsai store ) went into a GOOD bonsai nursery with , say $500 to spend and found the propriator , asked him to help me pick out the best tree for a relative newbe for less than $500 that I would stand a better chance of obtaining a tree I might have some success with than if I went to Lowes and spent the whole day on my knees , digging in pots. Notice , I never said it was an absolute truth but wouldn't I be more successful say with Brent , Rich or someone like that there ? Just another dumb question from a beginner who is also tired of the off topic bickering.

Carry on

Yes, I think most of us here would agree that you would do better in that circumstance. Of course, I would recommend some good experienced help in the future.

 

[Dwight]

So there is probably a relationship between quality and cost. It's just not a concrete relationship and involves many factors other than true quality. As for experienced help , I would hope to assume that the nursery could provide that to an extent , at least when it comes to choosing stock and probably providing some ideas as to design. Otherwise you arn't getting your true $500 worth.If I went to say Brent and did the above I feel certain he would help as much as he was able. Now what happenns after leaving the nursery , thats a horse of another color. But with the advice in choosing the tree and the hints provided by a reputable nursery owner the chances of absolutely screwing up the tree shopuld be reduced somewhat.

 

[grog]

Dwight,

Coming from another beginner I would say as far as getting quality material you would obviously be better going off with evergreen, shadyside, oregonbonsai, sonlight, etc. I'm sure it could be argued both ways ad nauseam. Learning from one piece of well developed stock vs. trying many different things with a lot of lesser material.

Personally if I could get the money back I've spent on local nursery stock I'd take 99% of it back and send it to one of the previously mentioned places. I've learned a lot from the nursery stock I'm sure but of the 100 or so nursery trees in my yard there are maybe three that will amount to anything in the foreseeable future. On the other hand nearly all of the material I've gotten from Brent and the hackberries, elms, and mulberries (I suppose that should be mulberry since only one survived) I've collected have a discernible future.

Learning on stock is great, learning on material you might actually want to still be looking at in a couple of years seems better to me.