I'm getting worried about my new Lebanon cedar.

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I just bought this Lebanon cedar Friday of last week and I'm seeing alot of browning. I've been trying to research what may be going on with the little guy. I'm in Utah and it is nearly 100f here and dry. I've been putting it in full sun because I understand they prefer this it's in a 15 gallon grow pot I got it in from the nursery. It came as a rootball in burlap with thick nasty clay. I got as much of the extra clay out as possible without disturbing the roots. I bought a moisture meter because I read that they prefer to be on the dry side of moist and this clay seems difficult to Guage. It is showing its on the mid "wet" still after 3 days with no watering. Did they over water it causing the browning or maybe the burlapping of the roots is just hitting it? Or did I do this when I maybe disturbed it when trying to remove some clay and burlap? 20200804_150722.jpg20200804_150725.jpg
 

sorce

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B&B trees are dying until they get in the Ground.

We bareroot the clay off with our fingers crossed and expect no more than 15% success.

That IS B&B in clay.

Sorce
 
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That's sad this little guy is awesome. I rent my house so I can't really plant in ground unless I want to plan to hide it on the back side and hope Noone notices then fill and replant grass after. To be honest though I have a hard time saying my soil here seems far off from pure clay. If I very gently bare root it into new better substrate in its large grow pot am I better off than leaving it as is and hoping it'll recover from whatever hit it?

I guess this might be my first lesson in an awesome tree dying even though I tried my best.
 

meushi

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Cedars tend to over-react when you touch their roots at the wrong time. I bought an Atlas cedar last year, and a friend bought one after seeing me style it at a club meeting. I repotted mine as the buds were bursting, it shed pretty much all its mature needles and recovered through the new growth that was opening. I may have lost a couple of side shoots, but it's been pushing pushing new ramification as well. My friend repotted his cedar earlier than me and it just dried out.
 

Wires_Guy_wires

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I second the root sensitivity. I have a 50% death rate (N=20) when taking them out of the field as 2 year old saplings. Saplings are usually more flexible and forgiving than adult plants.
They can ail for quite some time, they can recover very slowly. I had one that took three years to die.

Waiting it out and watering accordingly is the only thing you can do.
 

sorce

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I very gently bare root it into new better substrate in its large grow pot am I better off than leaving it as is and hoping it'll recover from whatever hit it?

My point is what's hitting it is it's stance in a pot after being balled and bagged.

These ONLY live if you put them in the ground.

So as Bonsai Practitioners, first, avoid them by not getting excited about anything in burlap. Once I identify things in burlap, usually larger Spruce at the Ritzy Home Depots, I just walk on by. Burlap? Bye!

It's just not worth the 15% success rate. For what is usually a much more expensive tree.

If we fail at mission one.

Bareroot them day one and pray!

Don't fail at mission one!

According to these fellas, Cedar should be Further avoided. Probly 2% chance of survival.

Don't get down! Get more!

Sorce
 
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Yeah I'll definitely be avoiding B&B moving forward. Lesson learned. That is disappointing though as it looks that's how larger trees seem to be packaged at the nurseries near me and weirdly they seem very light on anything much smaller. Is this just a bad time of year for shopping? I'm guessing other species can deal with the needed bare rooting a lot better? I did go ahead and do the bare root last night. I'll probably need to buy a couple more trees to ease my pain though.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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Picking up a B&B in late winter, early spring, and repotting just before or as the new growth gets started should work out fine.

Repotting, in 100 F heat in middle to late summer is asking for disaster.

Placing a cedar in full sun in 100 F heat is questionable. I know in coastal California, they keep these cedars in full sun, but a new acquisition, should probably go in part shade until it gets established. Freshly repotted material should also be kept in part shade. 100F sun is hard on all but the most well adapted of desert plants.
 
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I had a feeling that the heat and sun here might be a bit much. I was definitely struggling between "the foliage is drying the sun can't help" and "everything I read says full sun". I find it weird the "hardiness" only seems to ever mention the cold. I'm sure for most not in my extremeish environment it's not such an issue though.
 
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The browning seems to have stopped getting any worse at the moment. I've got my fingers crossed that getting that ridiculous brick clay off the roots and into some better substrate helps more than it hurts. I've also been letting it only get direct sun for about 4 hours in the morning while it's cooler, then giving it some decent shade in the afternoon.
 

Forsoothe!

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Just because you want to change the soil that the tree has grown in for 10 or 15 years doesn't mean there's something wrong with the clay that is there. And you don't get to choose how they tree will react to severe changes in the root zone or the exposure to heat, sun, humidity, ad infinitum. YOU have to adjust to the tree, and any changes you make have to be within the tree's zone of comfort. You need to ask yourself, "How can I do___________ so the tree is not too stressed by my actions." Your first order of business is to keep the tree alive and happy which you gauge by how it looks. Then, begin to reduce this or that and work your way towards a bonsai situation. Whatever else is true, the tree is bulletproof with that clay ball around the roots. It grew for lots of years in clay most likely in full sun. That's your starting point.
 
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Just because you want to change the soil that the tree has grown in for 10 or 15 years doesn't mean there's something wrong with the clay that is there. And you don't get to choose how they tree will react to severe changes in the root zone or the exposure to heat, sun, humidity, ad infinitum. YOU have to adjust to the tree, and any changes you make have to be within the tree's zone of comfort. You need to ask yourself, "How can I do___________ so the tree is not too stressed by my actions." Your first order of business is to keep the tree alive and happy which you gauge by how it looks. Then, begin to reduce this or that and work your way towards a bonsai situation. Whatever else is true, the tree is bulletproof with that clay ball around the roots. It grew for lots of years in clay most likely in full sun. That's your starting point.
I hope I haven't messed anything up too bad unfortunately the browning started happening fast and the only advice I got was "get it out of that clay or it will continue to die" I admit I panicked a bit when my new favorite tree was dying fast. I definitely planned to just leave it as I bought it until spring next year at least to make sure it was good and healthy. That might extend another year now if it survives.
 
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I didn't think it was possible but much of the dark brown needles seem to be returning to green. I took a really light keyboard dusting brush to some of the darker brown areas the last few days just to see if any needles were releasing because I read that if they are full dead they'll just fall away and I did see 1 or 2 needles drop but otherwise everything has seemed solid. I've been misting the foliage a couple times a day after watching Walter Pall's videos on collection he suggested you can supplement weak root uptake with misting. Hopefully I can get it back to normal and healthy while roots reestablish.
 
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Unfortunately it doesn't seem so. I thought I saw some green coming back for a few days. It seems now it's just generally losing its green and fading to brown all over. Here's my sad cedar next to his new younger brother.
20200824_073253.jpg20200824_073301.jpg
On the plus side I've learned a valuable (but expensive) lesson about B&B and being careful what you are buying and when.

I've been keeping it in shade to try to give it a chance and continue to mist it a couple times a day hoping it'll help with the drying. I think the panicked clay removal when it started browning doomed it but we'll see. Most of the branches still seem pliable vs a couple very small branches that dried and became brittle. Weirdly the needles still seem firmly attached too.

I talked to the nursery owner and I have a non-b&b 5 gallon coming in early spring.
 
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Forsoothe!

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I wouldn't bet the farm on that 5 gal. pot not being full of clay and outside that, there's no reason to believe that you are skilled enough with this troublesome species to be any more successful than the first round. The Mediterranean Cedars like that climate, and speaking as a serial killer of a string of Atlas Cedars, they are very particular about their watering & weather needs. I'm not telling you to abandon your love, I'm saying to start smaller and cheaper. Buy the five and set it on the side while you learn on a couple one's.
 
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Yeah, I don't know why I love these difficult stubborn guys so much but I'm definitely doing my best to learn everything I can before doing anything other than buying and planning.
I've picked up a 5 gallon blue atlas (definitely not B&B and in far better draining soil) that I plan on potting fairly large in the early spring then waiting for a year to do a chop and get started. These green prince Lebanon cedars grow beautifully naturally so with my new little guy I plan to mostly let it do its thing style wise and up pot in the spring in some good substrate to let it grow for a few years.
 
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I wouldn't bet the farm on that 5 gal. pot not being full of clay and outside that, there's no reason to believe that you are skilled enough with this troublesome species to be any more successful than the first round. The Mediterranean Cedars like that climate, and speaking as a serial killer of a string of Atlas Cedars, they are very particular about their watering & weather needs. I'm not telling you to abandon your love, I'm saying to start smaller and cheaper. Buy the five and set it on the side while you learn on a couple one's.
So I decided to do a little research on the specific climate in my town and funny enough the site says the places in the world with the most similar climate, one is Kemaliye, Turkey. The home range of Lebanon cedar is partly in south central Turkey. Which isn't too far off from where Kemaliye is located. I just thought it was interesting. I'm at the correct altitude too at 4800ft.
 

Forsoothe!

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Lookie here, compare yourself to the Med's C4, D4 regions. And look at eastern Turkey...
map Europe_climate.png
 
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