Impediments to beginners?

[badatusernames]

Well, umm, take a step back. Instead of asking if (local, national) experts want to "hang out," ask them (particularly if they're local) if they need help with their trees. It's repotting season after all.

Asking if any professional if they want to "hang out" is a dead end. You wind up looking like a thousand others who want something from them for free. You ask your doctor if he/she wants to hang out and talk about your shoulder injury?

Asking a local if you can come over (after attending some club meetings, etc.) and have a look at their trees is a good path to follow. Have had several folks from clubs and here do that with me. Had them over, got some free help with repotting, even sold off (or gave away) some excess trees.

Trick is not 'wandering in' and around a bonsai meeting. Not going to learn much of anything by wandering. If you want to strike up a conversation, ask members about their trees--what kind of trees do you like, how many do you have, where can I get good material...etc. Just start a conversation...Most members will talk freely, sometimes TOO much. Others, well, every club has an asshole or two. If you run into a non-communicative snob move on. Also don't forget that bonsaiists (even if they have spectacular trees) are human. Some are not extroverts. Like any social situation, learn to work the room.

yeah, I was just absolutely fried for like sixteen different reasons last year and didn’t even know about half of the reasons at the time. My whole job is communication, and I was definitely a bit of a failure last year.

and that’s a great idea about asking to help with repotting! Tbh I think I live like 15-20 min from Suthin so I was kinda thinking of it more as “hi neighbor”, without realizing how large the bonsai community really is, and that that was happening to him on a global scale. Like I knew he was famous but no idea what that actually MEANT in this world, especially in the US where it seems less codified than Japan.

for color, I bought two trees from him and imagined there was still a connection - if I had made these, selling them would be crazy to me. But like, I’m a huge idiot and when they went on sale also emailed John Romano letting him know. You know, in case an expert who makes his own trees was interested in buying someone else’s.



I’m trying, haha

 

[Shogun610]

yeah, I was just absolutely fried for like sixteen different reasons last year and didn’t even know about half of the reasons at the time. My whole job is communication, and I was definitely a bit of a failure last year.

and that’s a great idea about asking to help with repotting! Tbh I think I live like 15-20 min from Suthin so I was kinda thinking of it more as “hi neighbor”, without realizing how large the bonsai community really is, and that that was happening to him on a global scale. Like I knew he was famous but no idea what that actually MEANT in this world, especially in the US where it seems less codified than Japan.

for color, I bought two trees from him and imagined there was still a connection - if I had made these, selling them would be crazy to me. But like, I’m a huge idiot and when they went on sale also emailed John Romano letting him know. You know, in case an expert who makes his own trees was interested in buying someone else’s.



I’m trying, haha

Don’t mean to be harsh, but what made you think asking someone to hangout was a good idea, alittle creepy. Even though that wasn’t your intention, it comes off as selfish. Instead offer to help repotting or even menial tasks like weeding and watering. Be engaging, show interest in their work, and offer services .. don’t make it about you.

 

[MapleLeaf]

Lack of patience. Not timing procedures correctly.

Ill advised Attempts to 'trick' nature. Trees inside that SHOULDN'T be.

Rigid, rude 'breadstick" people..

A rude, off-hand comment about people's work, or thought procedure can REALLY affect those new.. I've seen many simply respond by not returning... and this means we are NOT helping them.

If one doesn't WANT to help... one should, politely, curb their yammering skull cave.

Newbies don't deserve to be berated.

This post should be pinned to every forum on every topic throughout all of internet land. So True.

 

[rockm]

yeah, I was just absolutely fried for like sixteen different reasons last year and didn’t even know about half of the reasons at the time. My whole job is communication, and I was definitely a bit of a failure last year.

and that’s a great idea about asking to help with repotting! Tbh I think I live like 15-20 min from Suthin so I was kinda thinking of it more as “hi neighbor”, without realizing how large the bonsai community really is, and that that was happening to him on a global scale. Like I knew he was famous but no idea what that actually MEANT in this world, especially in the US where it seems less codified than Japan.

for color, I bought two trees from him and imagined there was still a connection - if I had made these, selling them would be crazy to me. But like, I’m a huge idiot and when they went on sale also emailed John Romano letting him know. You know, in case an expert who makes his own trees was interested in buying someone else’s.



I’m trying, haha

There is NO reason not to talk to John or Suthin--particularly if you've bought trees from him. Just don't get expectations up and/or hold a grudge for no response. Online conversations via Facebook or the like can get the ball rolling. I've seen that kind of thing from Boon and others...BTW, ALL of the "famous" bonsai people I've met over the years have been down-to-earth, talkative and extremely friendly (FWIW, John Naka was among the most talkative and friendly bonsai people of all time. He set the bar for it). It can take time to earn trust from old-timers, however, as theft (or worse) can lurk in the background of allowing someone in for a close look at trees. Trust is built through a few seasons of in-person meetings, clubs events etc.

 

[HorseloverFat]

The more experienced Bonsai Practitioners that I have spoken to (and also wandered around their collection in COMPLETE awe-filled disbelief ((much like, what I assume, is everyone's first, in-person experience with a great collection of trees))) have been EXTREMELY polite, easy-going.. and helpful. Seriously, like a WAY higher percentage "good folk".. than the average NON-Bonsai person.

There's always that liiittle initial, shared, introversion barrier, which comes FROM being a "plant person" to conquer. But after that.... people like to speak of what they are passionate about... and LONG-TERM practice/passion/dedication Is WONDERFUL to experience an "Old-Timer" discussing.

 

[MapleLeaf]

Still good answers, but to the wrong question. The reasons for failure has been discussed here many times. Also the reasons many people do little trees poorly.
I have met many people who express an interest, even a fascination with the hobby, but won't give it a try. Why? Are they afraid of failing? are they reluctant to commit? do they just not know where to start? are they too busy? am I too ugly and smelly?
Also I know a few who have quit after a year or two, I am pretty sure I know why they quit but I have been unable to help them.

A major element is too busy.
My first pre-bonsais were bought / dug up in 2005. Had twins in 2006. Had dead trees by end of 2007.
Started again in 2013, joining this forum. Little league, work and all of those life events get in the way. (unsupportive wife)
Started yet again last year.........more research this time, more budget and upgraded the wife.

 

[MaciekA]

A major element is too busy.
My first pre-bonsais were bought / dug up in 2005. Had twins in 2006. Had dead trees by end of 2007.
Started again in 2013, joining this forum. Little league, work and all of those life events get in the way. (unsupportive wife)
Started yet again last year.........more research this time, more budget and upgraded the wife.

Good point. I think of it as bonsai's "Continuity Conundrum" or "Continuity Contract" depending on how you look at it.

Long term, once horticultural skills are in order and basic concepts are good, the cold hard reality is that some or even much of bonsai isn't casual/on autopilot, and can't be, much in the same way that dog or cat ownership can't be casual/on autopilot. At some point the thought occurs that 10 years is 3650 back-to-back days of continuity no matter what else happens. I've sometimes considered limiting myself to pines to slightly reduce (while not necessarily eliminating) my sensitivity to continuity.

In light of this and @James W. 's original question ... Maybe the best thing we could be doing is pushing portulacaria afra as an intro species ?

 

[Emanon]

For me (as a beginner) the thing that has always held me back, without a doubt, more than anything else... is access to unfiltered sunlight and ground for growing.

Just a follow up to my own earlier comment about the lack of adequate sunlight as a major impediment to beginners and cause for so many to give up... I found the video where Ryan Neil, like so many beginners in population dense urban areas (where, again, I think the largest number of first-time initiates with a passing interest live), is growing trees on his balcony. I posted here a few screen captures where he shows his balcony . This situation is a familiar one I think and one that is not sustainable for most unless you've been bitten very hard by the bonsai bug. I found it interesting that he was once like so many of us...

Lastly, and then I'll be quiet lol, I think the proliferation of threads futilely addressing the topic of how to grow trees indoors is a side-effect of this impediment.

 

[dbonsaiw]

For me (as a beginner) the thing that has always held me back, without a doubt, more than anything else... is access to unfiltered sunlight and ground for growing.

For those without backyards or balconies, I've seen products like the attached pic that allow for plants to be grown outside of a window and still allow for the window to close. This seems like something that can be built fairly easily as well. Have window, will bonsai.

 

[19Mateo83]

more budget and upgraded the wife.

best line yet!!

 

[badatusernames]

There is NO reason not to talk to John or Suthin--particularly if you've bought trees from him. Just don't get expectations up and/or hold a grudge for no response. Online conversations via Facebook or the like can get the ball rolling. I've seen that kind of thing from Boon and others...BTW, ALL of the "famous" bonsai people I've met over the years have been down-to-earth, talkative and extremely friendly (FWIW, John Naka was among the most talkative and friendly bonsai people of all time. He set the bar for it). It can take time to earn trust from old-timers, however, as theft (or worse) can lurk in the background of allowing someone in for a close look at trees. Trust is built through a few seasons of in-person meetings, clubs events etc.

yeah totally, that makes sense! Definitely no grudge held, it’s mostly just kind of hilarious in retrospect.

reminds me of someone I know who apparently walked into the fly fishing museum in the Catskills, Home of Flyfishing and Stoic Northeast Dudes, walked up to some old timers tying flies, and flat-out deadpanned “so wait, there’s more than one kind of fly?”

 

[badatusernames]

Don’t mean to be harsh, but what made you think asking someone to hangout was a good idea, alittle creepy. Even though that wasn’t your intention, it comes off as selfish. Instead offer to help repotting or even menial tasks like weeding and watering. Be engaging, show interest in their work, and offer services .. don’t make it about you.

tbh I was just like, hey I like bonsai, this guy likes bonsai, maybe he wants to talk to someone who is getting serious about bonsai. If he ended up being like “sure, actually, you could come help me” —that’s the thing I’d be wanting to do, that I thought would be too forward to ask prior to more of a relationship. I mighta gotten things flipped ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

like I said, zero scope of the scale of what I was asking

I’m only admitting it because it was funny and because I figured an actual newbie experience would help the folks who have been doing it longer understand the mindset.

It was dumb, we can laugh at it together tbh. I don't really know what else to do after a faux pas like that.

 

[Shogun610]

tbh I was just like, hey I like bonsai, this guy likes bonsai, maybe he wants to talk to someone who is getting serious about bonsai. If he ended up being like “sure, actually, you could come help me” —that’s the thing I’d be wanting to do, that I thought would be too forward to ask prior to more of a relationship. I mighta gotten things flipped ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

like I said, zero scope of the scale of what I was asking

I’m only admitting it because it was funny and because I figured an actual newbie experience would help the folks who have been doing it longer understand the mindset.

It was dumb, we can laugh at it together tbh. I don't really know what else to do after a faux pas like that.

Just do what I did.. go visit a few times , then offer your services… but don’t expect to do anything special…. Expect weeding, watering,de-wiring & mossing for a long time, you gotta show you’re serious about it , and worthy of their time.

 

[papkey5]

I read this in one of my books. I, being a beginner am guilty of it.
“Do not compare/copy your tree to another, even if they are the same species.” and “Pictures are 2D and cannot represent an actual specimen in its full glory.”

I used to look at bonsai pics and wonder what I would need to do to copy that. Doing so is incredibly discouraging. Obviously it is a mentality where you put the cart before the horse.
I tried to style a yew this last year and ended up hating it. It died. To change my tack, I decided to study and make notes and plans as I impatiently wait for winters end. I won’t be styling anything but will be bettering my horticulture skills.

 

[badatusernames]

Just do what I did.. go visit a few times , then offer your services… but don’t expect to do anything special…. Expect weeding, watering,de-wiring & mossing for a long time, you gotta show you’re serious about it , and worthy of their time.

yeah, I mean, I’m pretty sure I’d be into that tbh, I mean, ask me after a year of doing it I guess but thats kinda what I figured I’d need to earn trust to do, before anyone would think to let me haha

i kinda like that stuff, it’s not “work” to me yet.

 

[Kizerk]

So I am a beginner only 10ish months of active participation in the hobby with years of admiration before starting.

My biggest problems are as follows:

1. Information - As with many hobbies the raw amount of information both good and bad all around the internet about bonsai is staggering and starting out its almost impossible to tell good from bad. This good vs bad information is complicated significantly when considering different hardiness zones, species, prior growth environment (collected vs cultivated) and a thousand other factors mean that a single nugget of informations classification as good or bad is fluid.

2. Knowledge - The Dunning–Kruger effect is real and falling from that first peak is a brutal wakeup call. For my personal journey I have managed to negotiate solidly into "I know there is so much I don't know but I am learning" and this has lead to a desire to find good information to aid in my next steps so I can make them as well informed as possible. Without acknowledging this sliding scale the chances of brushing off good information that doesn't align with what you believe to be true can lead to some of the bull headedness mentioned in this thread.

3. Space and ground access - I started my bonsai journey on a 40ish square foot balcony 28 stories up in New York city. My access to in ground growing nonexistent. This meant all of the advice I received of " that's a great start, a few years in the ground and it will be a beautiful tree" were just salt in the wounds.

Local scene - when I started there was no easily accessible local scene I could find because of covid. I have since moved and was able to find a local bonsai club but I am the odd one out. I am a different generation to every other member and although I fit in that lacking of people my age was jarring at first.

Aside from all mentioned above my own personal blockers are just trying to find out the proper timings for repotting wiring and trim/chops for my current trees and my search for information has been muddled because of the border of hardiness zones I currently live on.

This is just my two cents so sorry for the ramble

 

[Lorax7]

3. Space and ground access - I started my bonsai journey on a 40ish square foot balcony 28 stories up in New York city. My access to in ground growing nonexistent. This meant all of the advice I received of " that's a great start, a few years in the ground and it will be a beautiful tree" were just salt in the wounds.

On the upside, I guess you don’t have to concern yourself with any of the stuff in the “bonsai theft prevention” thread when your trees are 28 stories up. However, it seems like overwintering trees would pose a significant challenge, unless you’re growing species that are hardy to at least a couple zones below the official USDA hardiness zone for NYC. It’s hard to follow the standard advice to put your trees on the ground and mulch them in when the ground is 28 stories below.

 

[Kizerk]

@Lorax7 Over wintering most certainly would have been an issue but I have since moved (still in an apt but only 2nd story now) and so they are now being over wintered in an unheated garage.

 

[Joe Dupre']

Re: ground access. To get a bigger trunk, allow tree to make a solid root ball.......one that you can pull the entire tree out of the pot with an intact root ball......and up pot it into pot an inch or so bigger all around. With some trees, you can do this a couple of times a year. Not as fast as ground growing, but surprisingly fast.

Re: knowledge. Get with someone local or pick an online expert that speaks to you and stick with them. If they are having success, you can too. Trying to follow too many people leads to information overload.

 

[Linn01]

"I know there is so much I don't know but I am learning"

This comes close to the maieutikè technè of Socrates. I have not found a decent translation in English, but I think 'elenctic or obstetrics method' is close. Getting one to realize that he does not know much yet, and there is still a world to discover, in a diplomatic and thoroughly convincing way is an art. Can be compared to a birth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socratic_method