Importance of Traditional Design

CamdenJim

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How much importance do you place on adhering to traditional bonsai design?

What is your typical response to a tree that is not so easily categorized as formal upright, windswept, clump, etc., but has a pleasing aspect and identifiable/definable visual aspects?

Is there some place in your personal concept of bonsai and its appreciation for bonsai conceived as free sculpture?

Perhaps the question concerns the breadth of our individual concepts of bunjin/literati style. Doe this make sense to you?

I'm quite the newbie [less than a year old], a recent retiree with an arts (music performance and education) background, and I find many, many bonsai images tickling my creativity in exciting ways.

To balance this, my favorite trees on our bench now are quite traditional and easily categorized by style.

Just thinking about boundaries and possible directions for my next tree.

Jim
 

Brian Van Fleet

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Compare it to learning music...it helps to recognize and understand what makes classical, jazz, blues, etc. first before you can play it. Once you get the basics down, it becomes fascinating to mix it up a bit...eventually you have a style that's your own, a little from here, a little from there. I really appreciate trees that don't necessarily follow a style for the sake of being a style. Check out the ginkgo on the third post of this thread. Wow! Yes, it could be called a clump, or twin(?) trunk, but more importantly, it's an amazing bonsai. Similar with the juniper above it, gorgeous tree, no matter the style.

I don't think I set out to do a certain style right now, I do what best plays up a tree's best traits. Once done, it could be classified, but only if it's important for someone to classify it. Although I can still see deciding one day to do a great formal upright...but then I'll seek out a tree with those traits, and style it accordingly.

My $.02
 

garywood

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CJ, In all the visual arts, as you know, effective use of space is paramount. When space is used harmoniously a style can be prescribed if necessary but who cares :cool:
Wood
 

Eric Schrader

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I think that you'll thank yourself if you allow the tree to suggest the style and not worry about which branch is the first, second or back branch. I find that the silhouette is frequently the most important thing on first inspection. Then the details follow.

Personally, the more surprising a tree is the more I usually like it. I hardly ever think about the category that it fits into.

If you've never seen this then you'll probably be happy you asked:

http://andyrutledge.com/book/
 

gergwebber

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one bit of experience I will share is to not force trees into styles or for that matter bonsai pots too early. some of my best bonsai died because i was in a rush to achieve a certain form or get a tree into that pot. conversely, some of my best trees today sat around the margins of my collection for years in old grow pots before they came into their own. I say learn how your trees need to be cared for in your environment and what species grow best there. then explore the finer details.

also, research advanced growing techniques like trunk chopping, grafting, and stump collection/carving. start developing trees with serious trunk now and you will be so glad you did in like five to ten years!

and if you want to stick a shohin in an old tequilla bottle, or root a fig over an old bust of shakespeare go right ahead and do it and don't take any guff from the bonsai fascists.
 

Dav4

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I don't think I set out to do a certain style right now, I do what best plays up a tree's best traits. Once done, it could be classified, but only if it's important for someone to classify it. Although I can still see deciding one day to do a great formal upright...but then I'll seek out a tree with those traits, and style it accordingly.
My approach as well.
 

Shimpaku

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one bit of experience I will share is to not force trees into styles or for that matter bonsai pots too early. some of my best bonsai died because i was in a rush to achieve a certain form or get a tree into that pot. conversely, some of my best trees today sat around the margins of my collection for years in old grow pots before they came into their own.

I like this. That is getting filed in the back of mind. Very good, thanks
 

Adair M

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CamdenJim,

I encourage beginners to learn the basics, first. Traditional design, if you will. Mastering Traditional design forms the foundation of your artistic eye.

When learning (teaching) music, do you start with scales? Or do you throw a Mozart concerto in front of a beginning student?

Once the basic are mastered, then it is time to play with "variations".
 

Tona

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Great question. I pay very little attention to strict styles when I design my trees. I think most Bonsai practitioners tend to gravitate towards their own style (likes and dislikes) anyway. I read books, pour over the internet, attend shows, seminars and classes and am on the board for a club in my area. I glean information from all of these venues, but in the end, I design trees the way I like them to look. Will I ever win best in show etc. not likely because the judging is based on traditional bonsai design and style (which I also do appreciate). One thing I love to do is bring a child or a person that is not a bonsai practitioner to a show and see what trees amaze them. Almost every time it is not the technically perfect trees, but the most artistically expressed trees. Try this sometime and remember what tree styles got you interested in the first place.
Great discussion,
Tona
 

rockm

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Most bonsai practioners that I've met that have been doing bonsai for more than a few years understand the value of "tradtional" bonsai--athough "traditional" covers a lot of ground (penjing, bonsai, etc.)

Most understand the "rules" and don't really get all upset over following them AND breaking them. As said before, you have to understand what you're making, how to make it and WHY there are "rules" You will learn that the "rules" aren't really rules, so much as techniques that make your trees more presentable to the human eye.

Understand those techniques and you can adapt, tweak and mold them to your desires and any particular tree.
 
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jk_lewis

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Design your bonsai to look like TREES. Chances are, you'll find them fitting into one or more of the traditional categories.
 

PaulH

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When I teach beginner bonsai classes I strongly emphasize learning the classic bonsai styles and styling rules. Most of these "rules" are based on the way trees naturally grow and learning them trains the eye to see bonsai as trees. As people progress as bonsai artists these classic styles become almost subconscious guidelines to styling but do not override what the tree is telling us. The tree should be the guide for its styling. This results in our creating bonsai that actually look like trees.
I also have found that the longer I am involved in this great bonsai obsession, the more the unusual and even bizarre style trees appeal to me, e.g. huge sumo trunks, spooky carving, and gaunt bunjins, etc. I increasingly find things like the classic "helmet head" informal upright pines and junipers boring to look at though I appreciate the huge skill required to make them.
Paul
 

Poink88

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Most bonsai practioners that I've met that have been doing bonsai for more than a few years understand the value of "tradtional" bonsai--athough "traditional" covers a lot of ground (penjing, bonsai, etc.)

Most understand the "rules" and don't really get all upset over following them AND breaking them. As said before, you have to understand what you're making, how to make it and WHY there are "rules" You will learn that the "rules" aren't really rules, so much as techniques that make your trees more presentable to the human eye.

Understand those techniques and you can adapt, tweak and mold them to your desires and any particular tree.
I agree. they are "guidelines" to produce a visually appealing tree. You can tweak them but to properly do so...you need to understand the concept.
 

grouper52

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I thought it might be of interest to some on this thread to include some design-related Dan Robinson quotes from my book, Gnarly Branches, Ancient Trees. They are different snippets from various parts of the chapter, "Becoming Picasso," about his design ideas. I spent a great deal of time taping Dan for the book in both formal interviews and a number of informal settings, and these quotes I include here distill down much of his thinking in this area - though the entire chapter, or the entire book, expands and deepens these ideas, and provides copious photos of his trees, which literally bring his ideas to life. FWIW.


“I put on a demo once in Philadelphia, working on a spruce, hollowing the trunk, bending the branches. During the question period, one guy got involved in a theoretical question about my philosophy, what I was doing, how it related to this or that art form. I just drew this huge blank, because when I try to explain what pushes me in some direction, it’s much less about theoretical ideas, and more about what I’m surrounded with and seeing in nature. When working on a tree, I’m not thinking about design concepts as much as I am about this little sprig here, and how I can get it in just the right proximal location to these branches, so that each has its space, its time in the light. I’m thinking how you don’t want it directly under another branch because then it will fail, and how you need a paucity of foliage, which allows the light in. Those are nature’s way, and this is what weighs heavily on me: how is this miniaturized tree going to work in the natural order of things?”

“The study of natural tree forms is invaluable. While all trees, young or old, have inherent value, certain trees have an awe-inspiring effect which transcends a typical tree. These special trees are invariably the older ones, and the study of these ancient brethren is important for your memory bank.”

“We are the sum total of what our visual images allow us to be. And if all we’ve ever seen is a forest of young trees, or a classic Japanese bonsai, then that’s it. Everything else is an anomaly. Most people only see what they recognize. And there’s comfort in that: we all do it to a degree. But it points to the importance of a broad palate of recalled images.”

(Dan speaking of years past in the Southern California bonsai scene): “Certainly among the Japanese there are some pretty artistic guys, but the majority don’t seem to grab onto anything except, ‘Gee, I like this collected tree because it has a great trunk, but the only way I know how to make a top is to put a big green mushroom on it.’ And then it’s done over and over and over again. And every tree is trained like a pine tree. It’s just a very limited design idea, and you go to a convention and point at them one after another, ‘Bonsai, bonsai bonsai, bonsai.’ They all look the same. And there’s certainly nothing wrong with that, but it’s not very inspired.”

“It’s a difficult thing trying to teach certain people who want to analyze this art form down to some sort of formula which will lead to perfection. Perfection is always a state of mind, a judgement formed on the basis of prior experiences: if it comes close to that, which I’ve seen before, it must be good. Well, maybe so, but that’s the antithesis of creativity, because creativity means something new. And so it isn’t very creative to make it perfect by some scale that someone has articulated. What might be more perfect, if you’re more interested in the natural look of things, is that you’ve got something that no one has seen before, and yet it has a reasonableness about it in terms of the natural need to survive under these miniaturized conditions.”
 

daygan

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I thought it might be of interest to some on this thread to include some design-related Dan Robinson quotes from my book, Gnarly Branches, Ancient Trees ....

Those are all great thoughts from Dan! Thanks!
 

Smoke

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I thought it might be of interest to some on this thread to include some design-related Dan Robinson quotes from my book, Gnarly Branches, Ancient Trees. They are different snippets from various parts of the chapter, "Becoming Picasso," about his design ideas. <snip>

I find the Los Angelas scene in bonsai as a microcosm of bonsai in 1965. Mind you not all, but for the most part 1965.

As a person that travels California in detail looking at trees I find the Northern part of the state much deeper in more comtemporary bonsai design than the old stale ways of 1965.
As I look at the trees in the recent post of the 55th anniversary of the California Bonsai Society, I am awestruck at most of the designs being first branch, second branch, back branch. As I look at my own trees I find that idea has translated as well as my first dealings with bonsai came from this group and their teachings. It's almost as if a person has to be untaught a lifetime of bonsai experience to get over the hump to more comtemporary aesthetics.

While a preson can glom onto a more naturalistic aesthetic, it is easier said than done as it takes just the right piece of material to pull it off convincingly. I hesitate to add that the simplist idea in a tree is when it looks as if it has never been styled.
 

grouper52

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Thanks, Al. Interesting the time you mentioned, 1965 - Dan attended first first BCI Convention in Pasadena in 1974, his first major convention outside the Puget Sound area. He spoke of the awe with which he met the artists and saw their trees, though even then he thought a lot of them ought to be re-styled to his liking. :) He was essentially banned from further demos or workshops in Southern California after his "Chainsaw Massacre" in 1980, until invited back 30 years later to rework the same tree at the convention where you and I met a few years ago. During that interim he was invited to Northern California many times.

Speaking of changing one's aesthetic, I found the four tokonoma you posted on that other thread stunningly beautiful, and deeply moving. I was surprised how much they affected me. Are any of those trees/displays yours? Really quite an epiphany for me. Thanks.

Will
 

Ang3lfir3

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How much importance do you place on adhering to traditional bonsai design?
Not much, I just don't spend time thinking about it :p

What is your typical response to a tree that is not so easily categorized as formal upright, windswept, clump, etc., but has a pleasing aspect and identifiable/definable visual aspects?
I find it far more appealing than seeing yet another tree that looks the same re: typical pine helmet

Is there some place in your personal concept of bonsai and its appreciation for bonsai conceived as free sculpture?
I can certainly appreciate the bizarre and interesting, these are the things I most appreciate and hope to highlight in collected material
(bold above is me)

hmmmm so what else can I add .... there is so much great comment made here .... quotes from my teacher and commentary from my friends and fellow "bonsai bums" ... really I am not sure I can add much to this topic ....

but I have one thing to comment on ... and take it for whatever value anyone might think it has ... I never really learned the "traditional" rules of bonsai design .... I don't know the magical ratios, or even branch ordering etc.... I have been fortunate in my bonsai time to have really spent all my significant learning time with individuals who embody the designs I prefer to create ; Daniel, Will, Vic all have taught me a great deal and I have learned so much from each and everyone of them. I still learn from them all with every conversation, every time they share the work they have done I learn something new.... but I still have no idea how far up the trunk the first branch should be....

I study bonsai relentlessly ... just ask my wife about it sometime, Vic will tell you all about it. I still have no idea what the perfect number of trees for a forest planting is. I have no idea how tall a shohin actually is. (i make that crap up as I go along) the truth is ... some really brilliant people taught me early on to focus on what matters the most ... making great looking trees ... and to do that, I had to SEE great looking trees. After that I had to accept that I could make those same trees myself.

I hope one day to actually be able to accomplish, just some of what I have seen done by others.
 

Smoke

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Thanks, Al. Interesting the time you mentioned, 1965 - Dan attended first first BCI Convention in Pasadena in 1974, his first major convention outside the Puget Sound area. He spoke of the awe with which he met the artists and saw their trees, though even then he thought a lot of them ought to be re-styled to his liking. :) He was essentially banned from further demos or workshops in Southern California after his "Chainsaw Massacre" in 1980, until invited back 30 years later to rework the same tree at the convention where you and I met a few years ago. During that interim he was invited to Northern California many times.

Speaking of changing one's aesthetic, I found the four tokonoma you posted on that other thread stunningly beautiful, and deeply moving. I was surprised how much they affected me. Are any of those trees/displays yours? Really quite an epiphany for me. Thanks.

Will

Thanks, the first tree is Jim Gremels atlas cedar. It came in first the inaugural year of our display contest. Jim also won first with a cascade juniper that year at Bill V.'s American display. The second tree is the winner the second year, my teacher Katsumi Kinoshita with a Monterey Cypress, the third tree is mine a trident maple that took second along side my teacher. The fourth tree is the winner from 2011, Charles Nelson, my best friend, and the fifth tree is mine also with second place again with the same tree. Just no leaves this time. We had no competition this year, but we will have a new one for 2013 and I am already planning my next move. So far I am the only multiple placer. I still want first though;)
 
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Smoke

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Keep in mind this competition has included the likes of Jim Gremel, Boon Manakitivipart, Kenji Miyata, Ted Matson, Seiji Shiba, John Wang, Peter Tea and Hideko Metaxas. All superstars in bonsai in general. Hideko Metaxis was featured in Willie Benz's book on display. In fact that scroll and stand is in that book!

http://www.artofbonsai.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1272 ( Read the whole review forward as Larry and Nina Ragle have judged this event as well as Kathy Shaner. )

Hideko setting her display. She came in second the first year. Hideko is known all over the world and frequently accompanies Bill V in Japan as a translator. She is a dear friend to me, and I have learned so much from her on traditional bonsai display in the way of Keido. (Japanese for "Way of looking at things").

Her scroll says, "Kan ji zai"..... "View as you wish"...or... "Feel as you are spirited"
This is a temple shrine display. Gingko's protect the shrine and the female diety protects the whole. The basis of zen is rooted in Kan ji zai.
 

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