Indoor propagation & cuttings

[JeffS73]

So I was crashing CM's indoor thread for a while, but now I've decided to document some of my experiments in their own thread.

I started a bunch of seeds early this year indoors for the first time to get a headstart, including JBP, JRP, larch (I think kaempferi, from local wild seeds) and a bunch of spruce.

Last time I posted on CM's indoor thread, I was having trouble with plants yellowing:





I couldn't work out what was wrong, but after thinking about it for a bit, I decided it was down to the environment, overwatering and the fabric pots.
Here's a view of what part of my setup looked like:



I had fabric pots on gravel to increase humidity in one tray, and in other trays the fabric pots were bunched up really tight, sat on the plastic tray.
The pots were never fully drying out, and I was watering twice a day. I think the plants were yellowing from overwatering. The humidity was very high, like 80%.

I realised fabric pots left on a surface like a plastic tray, even if spaced apart, will wick liquid from the bottom all the way to the top, and stay continually wet until all liquid has evaporated. A more careful approach was required to manage the environment.

Here's what my setup looks like now:


The pots are a lot more spaced out so the air can circulate, and I've lifted them off the trays using chicken wire racks. I opened the side of the tent and now keep the fan going for longer.
I also decided to step the watering down to once a day. My rationale was that if the pots are still wet on the outside when I normally water in the evening, the plants would be ok till the next mornings watering.
The Vapour-Pressure-Deficit (VPD) is now in the right range for young vegetative growth. The plants are a lot happier now!


JBP


Larch

 

[JeffS73]

Roots.

My first batch of JBP seedling cuttings took a long time to root, apart from one which got straight to it in a couple of days. I have a similar situation at the moment, a red pine that rooted super quick, the others seemingly doing nothing.

Roots from the first batch:






I used a combination of clonex gel and strike powder because we can't get Dip N' Grow in the UK. The two products I used provide the same hormones as Dip N' Grow, IBA and NAA. It's the NAA that's been discontinued in the UK.
I was also a bit late getting a heat mat underneath.

Now I have the mat going at 26c (79f) and spray with Clonex spray once a day as well. I think this helps, but I've no idea what's in it! With nothing on the label, I wouldn't be surprised if it were just kelp.

I had a reject tray from the first round that I left to get on with it, or recut, here are some pics from potting those up:







Some hadn't done so well. Because I've got a quite a few successful first cuts now, I decided to try and get a second cut to work on these little guys. I'm really hoping they take!

 

[rollwithak]

Looks like you’re getting great results. Well done friend.

 

[win320]

nice one @JeffS73 please share the update if possible. thanks

 

[JeffS73]

Here are some of the 2020 JBP seedling cuttings from above. I repotted into 1 gallon root pots in September '20.

I partly decided to repot 1/2 of them at this time to reduce the amount I had to repot in March '21, and also because I was curious to see if I could give them a head start. The main reason however was the root pouches were full and I wanted to see what was in there!



I was for the most part, really pleased. Radial roots, plump stems, lots of low shoots to work with. I organised them but didn't reduce them really, I was concerned not to slow them down. In hindsight, I should have pruned them back, but I think it'll be good to see how well they take off as a benchmark.

My main problem now is I've got too many, anyone got a field I can rent in South Yorkshire?!

 

[win320]

Here are some of the 2020 JBP seedling cuttings from above. I repotted into 1 gallon root pots in September '20.

I partly decided to repot 1/2 of them at this time to reduce the amount I had to repot in March '21, and also because I was curious to see if I could give them a head start. The main reason however was the root pouches were full and I wanted to see what was in there!


I was for the most part, really pleased. Radial roots, plump stems, lots of low shoots to work with. I organised them but didn't reduce them really, I was concerned not to slow them down. In hindsight, I should have pruned them back, but I think it'll be good to see how well they take off as a benchmark.

Wow !! that looks fabulous !! I think the results are amazing. When did you so the seeds and when did you make the seedling cutting?
They look incredibly healthy; what was your nutrient regime for them?
I assume they are scots pine...

Where did you buy the root pouches, they look good quality?

Thanks again

 

[JeffS73]

Thanks. They're JBP. The needles are very fine and long, I think this is down to the culture indoors, and I expect they'll look a lot more normal this coming season growing outdoors.

I sowed the seed in January I think, I'd started stratifying in Dec '19.
Root pots from local hydroponic store, everyone is doing them, 1L size about 55p each. I'm also using larger 1gal and above sizes instead of colanders.

Nutrient regime, nothing special, I would follow Cmeg1 for that. I mainly used an all round hydro feed, calmag and humic. Make sure hydro food has trace elements, I used vitalink plant start. I kept the ec around 0.5, and I measured the waste ec, if it was going up I would use straight water until waste ec was dropping. Definitely easy to overfeed and over water.

I do think a kelp, fulvic and transport foliar feed once a week has a big effect.

I will also be using silver bullet roots (hydrogen peroxide) in future when I do seedling cuttings to hopefully keep the gnat larvae at bay.

 

[rollwithak]

Thanks. They're JBP. The needles are very fine and long, I think this is down to the culture indoors, and I expect they'll look a lot more normal this coming season growing outdoors.

I sowed the seed in January I think, I'd started stratifying in Dec '19.
Root pots from local hydroponic store, everyone is doing them, 1L size about 55p each. I'm also using larger 1gal and above sizes instead of colanders.

Nutrient regime, nothing special, I would follow Cmeg1 for that. I mainly used an all round hydro feed, calmag and humic. Make sure hydro food has trace elements, I used vitalink plant start. I kept the ec around 0.5, and I measured the waste ec, if it was going up I would use straight water until waste ec was dropping. Definitely easy to overfeed and over water.

I do think a kelp, fulvic and transport foliar feed once a week has a big effect.

I will also be using silver bullet roots (hydrogen peroxide) in future when I do seedling cuttings to hopefully keep the gnat larvae at bay.

Will you post pictures of products your using please?

 

[win320]

Thanks. They're JBP. The needles are very fine and long, I think this is down to the culture indoors, and I expect they'll look a lot more normal this coming season growing outdoors.

I sowed the seed in January I think, I'd started stratifying in Dec '19.
Root pots from local hydroponic store, everyone is doing them, 1L size about 55p each. I'm also using larger 1gal and above sizes instead of colanders.

Nutrient regime, nothing special, I would follow Cmeg1 for that. I mainly used an all round hydro feed, calmag and humic. Make sure hydro food has trace elements, I used vitalink plant start. I kept the ec around 0.5, and I measured the waste ec, if it was going up I would use straight water until waste ec was dropping. Definitely easy to overfeed and over water.

I do think a kelp, fulvic and transport foliar feed once a week has a big effect.

I will also be using silver bullet roots (hydrogen peroxide) in future when I do seedling cuttings to hopefully keep the gnat larvae at bay.

Thank you so much for the detailed answer.
JBP looks super healthy, sorry got confused with Scots pine as the needles are very long and twisted a bit. It is due to the indoor I believe. Amazing roots as well.

Thanks

 

[JeffS73]

Will you post pictures of products your using please?

Sure, no problem!



Think I mention all of these products in post #3 above.

I would say that I don't think the specific products make the difference, getting the horticulture right is the key. Things like getting the water PH right, right nutrient levels, testing for excess nutrients, making sure the media is free draining, washing nutes off foliage, pest and fungal control, and in the case of fabric pots - making sure they have space and can drain. Those things have a much bigger effect.

 

[win320]

Sure, no problem!

View attachment 353705

Think I mention all of these products in post #3 above.

I would say that I don't think the specific products make the difference, getting the horticulture right is the key. Things like getting the water PH right, right nutrient levels, testing for excess nutrients, making sure the media is free draining, washing nutes off foliage, pest and fungal control, and in the case of fabric pots - making sure they have space and can drain. Those things have a much bigger effect.

Thanks
Do you use tap water or RO or Rainwater? I was using water from my dehumidifier but now the humidity is so low in Brighton that it is not collecting any water

 

[JeffS73]

Tap water. I add ecothrive neutralise to remove chlorine and chloramines which are bad for mycorrhizae. Turns out it is just vitamin C, 1x 1000mg vit C tablet can neutralise a bath of water, so that's the cheap option!

I can see that RO water may allow packing more nutrients in, but for me it's a step too far and my seedlings look OK without it.

I think in future I might use the hydrogen peroxide for seedlings and cuttings, then add myco once roots are established. Hopefully will keep pests at bay.

Also, one of my cedar libani cuttings sprouted new shoots today. Here are the roots:



Not much to look at huh? Hopefully it'll turn out like one of its fellows this year:

 

[win320]

Thanks for sharing Jeff... I will try this product with my tap water.

Cedar Libani looks nice... I am trying with Cedar Atlantica, any tips for Cedar seedling cutting? how long does it take to root?

Sorry for asking more questions I am new to this.

Thanks

 

[JeffS73]

Not sure, it was a late developer and it was a tourniquet instead of cutting. Think about 6-8 weeks.

 

[rollwithak]

I wonder what chlorine does to plants actually???

 

[JeffS73]

Chlorine and chloramines inhibit beneficial mycorrhizae, not a big problem in the early stages. In fact if you use hydrogen peroxide to keep bugs at bay, no myco will grow. My plan in the future is to use the hydrogen peroxide until I've got a strong well developed nebari, and encourage myco after that, about the 18 month point.

 

[win320]

Hi @JeffS73

This looks fabulous. I tried Atlas cedar seedling cutting, it disintegrated in 5 days despite the closed dome. I will try the tourniquet method. To my experience, Atlas cedar does not like wet foot. At the seedling stage itself, many of them died. None of the JBP or SCP died.

What was your success rate of Cedar Libani with the tourniquet method? How many days does it take to root with the tourniquet method?
Could you please explain the tourniquet method, it will help me a lot?

Thank you very much.

 

[JeffS73]

Don't use a dome with cedar, they damp off so easily. I spray the seeds and the growing media with fungicide, and let it mostly dry out.

The tourniquet, I waited quite late, maybe 8-12 weeks after germination. I wrapped cotton thread twice round the stem, just below where the stem changes to root and tied it.

I've found cedar really difficult to propagate, but best of luck!

 

[win320]

Don't use a dome with cedar, they damp off so easily. I spray the seeds and the growing media with fungicide, and let it mostly dry out.

The tourniquet, I waited quite late, maybe 8-12 weeks after germination. I wrapped cotton thread twice round the stem, just below where the stem changes to root and tied it.

I've found cedar really difficult to propagate, but best of luck!

Thanks Jeff for sharing the details.
I will follow that, yes they damp off so much, I lost almost all of them; I will try without the dome.
surprisingly my germination rate for Atlas Cedar was quite good (around 18 out of 20 germinated).

Did you try seedling cutting for Cedar? any success with seedling cutting method?

What was the media used for Cedar?

Thanks again.

 

[JeffS73]

I didn't try seedling cutting because I got just 7 seedlings from 200 seed, a lot more germinated but damping off wrecked them.

A tourniquet, not too tight, let's the seedling "cut itself" at its own rate. I only tried this on two seedlings, I decided to root prune more conventionally on the rest.