Informal Upright - New Leader Question

dbonsaiw

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Having yet to see it firsthand, I'm trying to better understand the effects of growing a new leader on an informal upright. Specifically, the typical chop results in something along the lines of Figure A (pardon my drawings) and appears to leave somewhat of a sharp angle at the bottom of the cut. I assume that with proper healing the wound heals in a more rounded manner thereby giving the impression of a bend. My question is if what would be the result if the cut was made in the reverse manner and the leader grown as in Figure B? Would this give a better shape and avoid the sharp angle?
 

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19Mateo83

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Having yet to see it firsthand, I'm trying to better understand the effects of growing a new leader on an informal upright. Specifically, the typical chop results in something along the lines of Figure A (pardon my drawings) and appears to leave somewhat of a sharp angle at the bottom of the cut. I assume that with proper healing the wound heals in a more rounded manner thereby giving the impression of a bend. My question is if what would be the result if the cut was made in the reverse manner and the leader grown as in Figure B? Would this give a better shape and avoid the sharp angle?
Preferably you want to cut above the node to allow for die back. Then cut and carve stub down once the new leaders are grown to blend the area to make a smooth taper and to allow a as smooth as possible scar. At least that’s how I understand the process.
 

dbonsaiw

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Preferably you want to cut above the node to allow for die back. Then cut and carve stub down once the new leaders are grown to blend the area to make a smooth taper and to allow a as smooth as possible scar. At least that’s how I understand the process.
I wasn't asking how to effectuate the cut in either figure. I would be cutting above the node to allow for die back in either scenario. My question was how would the developed tree in each of the Figures above differ in appearance. In the first Figure (the typical informal upright cut), the scar ends up on the outside of the bend and a sharp angle is created. In the second proposed Figure, the cut is on the inside and, at least in theory, appears to provide taper on the inside of the curve and then a nicer, more controlled bend on the outside. I haven't seen anyone develop the leader in this manner and was trying to figure why.
 

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I just made the chop starting at the new leader edge away and down to the other edge.
I guess it depends on which side the selected leader shows up….what was apparent to me anyway.
 

dbonsaiw

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I guess it depends on which side the selected leader shows up….what was apparent to me anyway.
Good an answer as any, but if there's one thing I learned from the folks here it's that nothing is left to chance. That said, it seems to me that each of these alternative methods will produce a different looking tree. I'll rephrase the question slightly - assume that you chop the trunk ("pollard" in Italian) straight in early spring and a veritable cornucopia of shoots sprung out of every node and in every direction. You have pick of the litter on your new leader and where to make the correcting cut. So, the question is, why make this cut in a manner that risks a sharp angle when the cut can be made on the inside and the new leader wired into the bend you want? I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel, just trying to understand.
 

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May consider the movement below the cut point, I.e leaning left down low, do your method and bend with wire back to the right across the cut.
Mine….where I will likely select a bud growing to right above the cut point. It is my only leader right now so I chose not to wire and risk damaging it in dry southern ca.
B5E0A0B2-09B6-45E8-B628-92D3E976D9BC.jpeg
 

Shibui

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I'll rephrase the question slightly - assume that you chop the trunk ("pollard" in Italian) straight in early spring and a veritable cornucopia of shoots sprung out of every node and in every direction. You have pick of the litter on your new leader and where to make the correcting cut. So, the question is, why make this cut in a manner that risks a sharp angle when the cut can be made on the inside and the new leader wired into the bend you want? I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel, just trying to understand.
I'm not sure what 'sharp angle' you are referring to.
I normally cut so the new shoot provides the bend in the new trunk. If the chop is too blunt just chop at a bigger angle. After a couple of years these cuts seem to merge and disappear into a good change of direction if it is done well.
Note that cutting above an opposite budding node like maple and trying to use one side for a leader and the other for a branch rarely works well in my experience. These bends tend to over thicken so I no longer cut like that. Now I cut off the opposite bud with a longer angle cut and get much better bends.

The large bend you have drawn in the second illustration does not look natural to me but if you like the look go for it.
 
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My question was how would the developed tree in each of the Figures above differ in appearance.

I think that the answer is in your drawings themselves.
The first picture shows a quite sharp change in direction that often happens in trees when a branch dies and a new leader takes over. In time, when the trunk thickens, that change of direction looks very natural and pleasing.
The tree in the second picture will have that 'natural' change in direction to the right, followed by a very unnatural banana-shaped curve to the left. It will look odd, and unnatural.
 

dbonsaiw

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I think shibui and soup dragon answered the question. The second diagram simply will not look right. Love and learn.
 
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