Input needed for yamadori spruce

August44

Omono
Messages
1,877
Reaction score
1,334
Location
NE Oregon
USDA Zone
5-6
I collected a group of spruce last year in the mountains right outside of town at about 5500-6500' elevation. I handled them a little differently than I have in the past and also did not dig in areas that produce tap roots. They all did very well. I had no browning and very little to no needle loss. They are a vibrant green right now after winter here. I am doing just a bit of pruning and wiring. I am having trouble with the direction to go on the double trunk one. It is very healthy as you can see, but think the double might be un-acceptable. I have a number of thoughts:
1) Remove one of the trunks completely
2) Gin all of or part of the second trunk after cutting it down a bit

Please tell me what you envision here if you have time. Yes, I think most of them need more movement too. Thanks, Peter
 

Attachments

  • IMG_0355.jpg
    IMG_0355.jpg
    94.5 KB · Views: 44
  • IMG_0345.jpg
    IMG_0345.jpg
    81.9 KB · Views: 46
  • IMG_0346.jpg
    IMG_0346.jpg
    114.7 KB · Views: 41
  • IMG_0347.jpg
    IMG_0347.jpg
    90.9 KB · Views: 41
  • IMG_0348.jpg
    IMG_0348.jpg
    90.2 KB · Views: 44
  • IMG_0342.jpg
    IMG_0342.jpg
    79.4 KB · Views: 92
  • IMG_0343.jpg
    IMG_0343.jpg
    104.6 KB · Views: 47
Last edited:

CWTurner

Omono
Messages
1,266
Reaction score
1,732
Location
Philadelphia PA
USDA Zone
7a
Hi Peter44.
Just my amateur 2 cents here.
What you have is a double leader, not a double trunk. In nature, these often split as that deep crotch is week. You can replicate that if you wish. I really don't like the looks of the double leader.
The rest of the trees are nice and green as you say, but I will disagree with your assessment that they need more movement. Straight looks more natural to my eye for these kinds of trees.
I'm sure you'll get other (better) advice shortly.
CW
 

Wires_Guy_wires

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
6,408
Reaction score
10,630
Location
Netherlands
You don't state when you collected them; spring or fall last year?
I do wiring on spruce in winter and I prefer to not prune the first year after a repot.
So my suggestion for now would be: water them, feed them, and do the wiring and bending related work in the fall or winter.
 

BobbyLane

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
6,058
Reaction score
17,659
Location
London, England
I collected a group of spruce last year in the mountains right outside of town at about 5500-6500' elevation. I handled them a little differently than I have in the past and also did not dig in areas that produce tap roots. They all did very well. I had no browning and very little to no needle loss. They are a vibrant green right now after winter here. I am doing just a bit of pruning and wiring. I am having trouble with the direction to go on the double trunk one. It is very healthy as you can see, but think the double might be un-acceptable. I have a number of thoughts:
1) Remove one of the trunks completely
2) Gin all of or part of the second trunk after cutting it down a bit

Please tell me what you envision here if you have time. Yes, I think most of them need more movement too. Thanks, Peter

thats a strange thought, considering there are many great examples of twin trunk spruce in the states and in europe, all over the internet.

this looks like one of Walter palls
F8UloLJKwBdTCRc8hcuLEgZ0NW8PcK-dxlOjT5P66DZofuqedkptdtIsCUVsAXu3EBt7dzrLsvJniVJ05aOqb4ZFBibprEs-V3ibTP4nKRGoSoulGImuCw
 

August44

Omono
Messages
1,877
Reaction score
1,334
Location
NE Oregon
USDA Zone
5-6
Collected early last spring by the way.
 

Colorado

Masterpiece
Messages
3,104
Reaction score
8,227
Location
Golden, Colorado
USDA Zone
5b
You already have a number of similar single-trunked Spruce. Why make this one the same?

I’d keep the double trunks, but I think one will certainly need to be defined as the “leader” and the other should take a secondary role (shorter and, over time, thinner).
 

August44

Omono
Messages
1,877
Reaction score
1,334
Location
NE Oregon
USDA Zone
5-6
You already have a number of similar single-trunked Spruce. Why make this one the same?

I’d keep the double trunks, but I think one will certainly need to be defined as the “leader” and the other should take a secondary role (shorter and, over time, thinner).

Ok so does "thinner" mean thinner in trunk diameter or thinner in branches? Help appreciated
 

Velodog2

Chumono
Messages
950
Reaction score
2,065
Location
Central Maryland
I have a few nice yamadori spruce waiting to be worked on myself. I consider Walter Pall to be the standard for yamadori spruce styling as his trees retain their natural character while acquiring enough refinement to be considered bonsai to me. He makes good use of natural features some may consider ‘defects’ to make the trees interesting.
 

BobbyLane

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
6,058
Reaction score
17,659
Location
London, England
Ok so does "thinner" mean thinner in trunk diameter or thinner in branches? Help appreciated
Ok so does "thinner" mean thinner in trunk diameter or thinner in branches? Help appreciated

i wouldnt say it necessarily has to be thinner, sometimes you have to work with what you have.
a google search of Walter pall spruce or Ryan neil spruce twin trunk throws up loads of ideas.do some research man🥴
 

Attachments

  • Screenshot_20200406-163417_Google.jpg
    Screenshot_20200406-163417_Google.jpg
    85 KB · Views: 25

River's Edge

Masterpiece
Messages
4,708
Reaction score
12,608
Location
Vancouver Island, British Columbia
USDA Zone
8b
Hi Peter
Nice healthy looking bunch! My advice would be as follows!
Each one will benefit from a full season of growth and stronger rejuvenated root system.
Each will benefit from thickening of the trunk for future design purposes and balance as Bonsai.
Therefore:
I would let them grow without any reduction of foliage! I would water carefully and fertilize regularly after you note signs of new growth.
Spruce and Fir can respond very well after collection, When working for Bonsai, they will respond even better after a full season or two of root rejuvenation. In the end your overall progress will be faster with the added advantage of thickening the trunks, the longer you wait with full foliage. If desired you can wire the branches open to ensure better air movement and light to the interior. The trees are still juvenile and bending if desired will be easy to do for years ahead.
Just some thoughts for consideration.
 

River's Edge

Masterpiece
Messages
4,708
Reaction score
12,608
Location
Vancouver Island, British Columbia
USDA Zone
8b
thats a strange thought, considering there are many great examples of twin trunk spruce in the states and in europe, all over the internet.

this looks like one of Walter palls
F8UloLJKwBdTCRc8hcuLEgZ0NW8PcK-dxlOjT5P66DZofuqedkptdtIsCUVsAXu3EBt7dzrLsvJniVJ05aOqb4ZFBibprEs-V3ibTP4nKRGoSoulGImuCw
I suspect a different angle photo will show that the two trunks actually branch in a lower position than this photo suggests. An important consideration in overall style acceptability!
 

BobbyLane

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
6,058
Reaction score
17,659
Location
London, England
I suspect a different angle photo will show that the two trunks actually branch in a lower position than this photo suggests. An important consideration in overall style acceptability!
maybe.but that was just a quick search. he needs to consistantly look at similar trees for ideas to pop into his head.
 

River's Edge

Masterpiece
Messages
4,708
Reaction score
12,608
Location
Vancouver Island, British Columbia
USDA Zone
8b
Well, IMG_0538.jpegIMG_0539.jpeg we have different taste in styling! Here is my preference of a twin trunk style spruce. Credit Michael Hagedorn. Ezo Spruce. One of my favourites that I have seen world wide. Much different when there is a pleasing relationship in the size of the two trunks and the position is lower down. At least in my opinion. Also I may note is in keeping with judging standards in the Bonsai Show community.IMG_0538.jpegIMG_0539.jpeg
 

BobbyLane

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
6,058
Reaction score
17,659
Location
London, England
yes its nice too, i like his work. he also has some conifers where the two trunks are of a similar height if im not mistaken.
trouble is, if the op only comes on here to get a few ideas from a few guys who are set in their ways, then he only really sees one side of the coin:)
 

Leo in N E Illinois

The Professor
Messages
11,337
Reaction score
23,253
Location
on the IL-WI border, a mile from ''da Lake''
USDA Zone
5b
Hello Peter,
I would keep both trunks for your double trunk. As said earlier, the others you have are all singles or a group forest. I would plan on the shorter of the two trunks to be the subordinate trunk. In time the subordinate trunk should be smaller in diameter trunk wise, and shorter than the dominant trunk. Right now they are pretty equal. You can control growth, so that in time the difference between the two trunks will become more distinct. The "classic rule" which is not really a rule, but is known to visually work, the subordinate trunk should be about 2/3rds the height of the dominant trunk. It should never be exactly half, and can also work if 1/3rd the height. Clearly, this tree the subordinate trunk is more than 2/3rds. I would allow the dominant trunk to add a little height, and prevent by pruning the subordinate trunk from growing taller.

Just by keeping branches on the subordinate trunk pruned a little shorter than the dominant, and not allowing it to gain height you can create a fairly sharp difference between the two in as little as 5 years. With no radical pruning, just controlling new growth.

But like others have recommended, wire only for the time being. Hold off on any pruning until at least autumn, or sometime in 2021.

Nice collection of spruces, their color is very healthy. I really like them. Well done.

 

Leo in N E Illinois

The Professor
Messages
11,337
Reaction score
23,253
Location
on the IL-WI border, a mile from ''da Lake''
USDA Zone
5b
You can see the lowest branch on the shorter trunk is really dense with foliage. Just pruning off a third of that branch, shortening it a little and shortening each of the secondaries on the branch will bring it to a size less dense than the main trunk. Do that type of pruning for all the branches and it will slow down its growth, while allowing the dominant to grow more freely, in just a few years you should be able to get the two to make a harmonious couple.

img_0342-jpg.294152


But as other said, I would not start the pruning until end of 2020 or sometime in 2021.
 

BobbyLane

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
6,058
Reaction score
17,659
Location
London, England
i do love spruce, but ive killed all the ones ive worked.i should probably keep my mouth shut😂

you wont get any horticultural advice from me:D
 

River's Edge

Masterpiece
Messages
4,708
Reaction score
12,608
Location
Vancouver Island, British Columbia
USDA Zone
8b
Ok so does "thinner" mean thinner in trunk diameter or thinner in branches? Help appreciated
Ideally the subordinate trunk will end up shorter, thinner and have less foliage. Leo's suggestion is great in making the most of this material. If you wish to make use of both trunks.
 
Top Bottom