Intelligent conversation of the Literati

Dorian Fourie

Chumono
Messages
716
Reaction score
2,010
Location
Johannesburg South Africa
USDA Zone
9b
I had purchased a Juniperus procumbens 'Nana' from a nursery in 2012 with the plan to bonsai the tree. It had been standing in the bag from the nursery under a bush in the garden and I never got round to it. Eventually in Sept 2014 I took it out and cut it into pieces and planted them. In Jan 2015 I decided to work on one of the pieces and it is was really just a fool around tree. Nothing really serious at all. I looked at the tree and then wired it.
10943752_392973424217097_1565672489605612402_o.jpg
10866028_392974214217018_3642322992955633202_o.jpg

In April 2015, I put it into a bigger plastic pot and planted that into the ground to let the tree thicken up. In Feb 2016, the juniper was irritating me as it looked like nothing was happening with it. I decided that it was going into the bin but I wanted to remove all the wire first. I pulled it out of the ground, took off all the wire and then noticed how nice the taper was at the bottom of the trunk. I decided to keep it but I cut off all the lower branches and left stubs on the thickest ones to 'Jin'. I planted it back into the pot and back into the garden.
12783699_534050880109350_2373820017243562744_o.jpg

One month later it was back on my desk to get wire on it and bend it. After that back into the garden.
12764469_537296986451406_5595756552299806930_o.jpg
From March to Sept, I continuously had it out of the garden, looked, cut, rewired and actually didn't leave it alone.

By Sept I took it out again and wired the branch that had the most grow on it and put more movement into it before it went back into the garden.
14524982_631041737076930_9076556454881501987_o.jpg

By March 17 it was back out of the garden to see what was happening. The wire had bit into the trunk (Which was what I wanted) and I was happy with the progress. I removed all the wiring, cleaned up the areas where the wired had bit in and rewired it into the exact same grooves as before. I wired it all the way to the top of the apex and then brought the whole apex downwards.

17434703_721089318072171_2078218388529644900_o.jpg
 

Dorian Fourie

Chumono
Messages
716
Reaction score
2,010
Location
Johannesburg South Africa
USDA Zone
9b
In August 2017 I decided to put it into a pot.
20994037_809883975859371_3621662052687044578_n.jpg

I cleaned up the tree, did some light work and put it into a pot (The totally wrong pot mind you)

20953515_809884039192698_951132194052287173_n.jpg

In Sept I rewired the canopy area and put some more movement into the upper trunk.
21458180_818259461688489_3764934055043835538_o.jpg

At the end of Oct, the pot broke. Have no idea why but the whole corner came off. So a quick emergency repot into the first pot I could find.

23157328_844226629091772_1497317486541943851_o.jpg

Last week, I cleaned off some more foliage and I am happy with its journey over the last few years. For something that started off as a fool around project, it developed better then expected. It is only 20.5 cm high (8 inches) from the rim of the pot.
23157288_10213967880132013_327311699334942073_o.jpg
In a few months, I will think about removing the wire and cleaning up the shari running up the trunk.

So let me know your thoughts? Good, bad. I am open to all critique.
 
Last edited:

Pachycaul

Mame
Messages
110
Reaction score
154
Location
New Mexico elev. 7660'
USDA Zone
6A
Any thoughts on opening the angle of the topmost bend? I see the wire emerging from the foliage pad on the left and I'm assuming that is the direction of main leader growth. The tightness of the bend where the leader heads back down bothers me a little bit. What do you think of opening up that angle so the foliage doesn't overlap with the trunk? To my eye that closes up the upper part of the tree.
 

Dorian Fourie

Chumono
Messages
716
Reaction score
2,010
Location
Johannesburg South Africa
USDA Zone
9b
Any thoughts on opening the angle of the topmost bend? I see the wire emerging from the foliage pad on the left and I'm assuming that is the direction of main leader growth. The tightness of the bend where the leader heads back down bothers me a little bit. What do you think of opening up that angle so the foliage doesn't overlap with the trunk? To my eye that closes up the upper part of the tree.
Very valid point and thanks for pointing it out.

For now I feel the pad is still too big and needs to be thinned out. The problem is that too much removed will weaken the tree to much and I could loose it so I am doing it slowly. The bend could be too tight but the good think about the juniper is that it is so flexible and when the canopy is more developed then I can reevaluate some of the bend and movement
 

music~maker

Shohin
Messages
392
Reaction score
704
Location
Boston, MA
USDA Zone
6b
I'll be honest, I prefer the image one back from the final one. That one still had a lot of starting points, so if you had let it grow out from there, you would have had a lot to choose from for future work within just a few seasons.

From where it's at now, I feel like you've painted yourself a bit into a corner. It may be a corner you really like, and you may have gone there completely on purpose, but your options are undoubtedly more limited now that they were before that last pruning. With these trees, you have the luxury of being able to let them grow out and see how they're going to develop before making final decisions. They grow slowly enough that the worse that usually ever happens is that you still cut off what you were going to anyway, but the trunk looks a lot more developed before you do it. There's virtually no downside to working these slowly once you set an initial direction.

If that were mine, I'd probably let it establish a decent root ball, and then I'd up-pot to something a little bigger, then probably leave it in the bigger pot for about 5 years. You might want to re-pot around year 3-4 (into the same pot), but you may not even have to. Letting it scale up a little will add a lot of character to that trunk, even if you scale it up very slowly to keep your proportions intact.

I'm curious to see where you go with this next - please post updates.
 

Dorian Fourie

Chumono
Messages
716
Reaction score
2,010
Location
Johannesburg South Africa
USDA Zone
9b
I'll be honest, I prefer the image one back from the final one. That one still had a lot of starting points, so if you had let it grow out from there, you would have had a lot to choose from for future work within just a few seasons.

From where it's at now, I feel like you've painted yourself a bit into a corner. It may be a corner you really like, and you may have gone there completely on purpose, but your options are undoubtedly more limited now that they were before that last pruning. With these trees, you have the luxury of being able to let them grow out and see how they're going to develop before making final decisions. They grow slowly enough that the worse that usually ever happens is that you still cut off what you were going to anyway, but the trunk looks a lot more developed before you do it. There's virtually no downside to working these slowly once you set an initial direction.

If that were mine, I'd probably let it establish a decent root ball, and then I'd up-pot to something a little bigger, then probably leave it in the bigger pot for about 5 years. You might want to re-pot around year 3-4 (into the same pot), but you may not even have to. Letting it scale up a little will add a lot of character to that trunk, even if you scale it up very slowly to keep your proportions intact.

I'm curious to see where you go with this next - please post updates.
Thanks for the feedback MM

You are quite right that it is a corner that I like. I have always liked that feel of a very small pad hanging down and as this project developed, I moved in that direction. Whether or not it is right, I cannot say.

I like the idea of up potting it to develop and thicken up some. I think I will slip pot it into a larger pot and then just leave it for another season, just monitoring it on how it develops.
 

music~maker

Shohin
Messages
392
Reaction score
704
Location
Boston, MA
USDA Zone
6b
Thanks for the feedback MM

You are quite right that it is a corner that I like. I have always liked that feel of a very small pad hanging down and as this project developed, I moved in that direction. Whether or not it is right, I cannot say.

I like the idea of up potting it to develop and thicken up some. I think I will slip pot it into a larger pot and then just leave it for another season, just monitoring it on how it develops.

No right or wrong, really. Just different paths. The only real rules are "try not to kill the tree", and "if you do kill the tree, go get another one and try not to kill it the same way twice".

Here's one of mine that I started from a pretty early stage, and I'm still refining it around 8 years later:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bonsai/comments/2ksckd/juniper_history_20102014/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bonsai/comments/5qi1b6/juniper_update_spring_2015_winter_2017/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bonsai/comments/6x3y5f/juniper_late_summer_2017/

The imgur albums are annotated and highlight various things throughout. Might give you some ideas. My initial direction didn't look any better than your standard mallsai at the time, but I liked the structure for some reason and thought it would make a decent frame to build off of.

I find working them very slowly and mostly just letting them grow works magic. You can almost always leave them alone just a little bit longer and they just get better. You just have to set an initial direction that you like, and they do a really good job of filling out the space with something interesting.

Mine is just about due for a good wiring/styling, but then again, I might just wait another year or so ... no rush.
 

sorce

Nonsense Rascal
Messages
32,908
Reaction score
45,579
Location
Berwyn, Il
USDA Zone
6.2
The bend could be too tight

I might like to see that bend just flopped to the back and a little left maybe. If just to break up the upside down U.
I hate U's! Lol!

Like, fold the U in half backwards.

Awesome progress.
Bro....you kill it! And so modest! So un-American!

Love it all!

Sorce
 

sorce

Nonsense Rascal
Messages
32,908
Reaction score
45,579
Location
Berwyn, Il
USDA Zone
6.2

That one jin has got to be one of the most interesting and beautiful I've ever seen.

I feel like removing the straighter ones may enhance its awesomeness.
Or.
Destroy the whole thing.

Definitely Ponder worthy.

Wait wait....
After further inspection....

20171111_043046.png

That one....in the other pic...kills all happy flow of the other...WAY more beautiful jins.

Dorian has a U.
You'll have a Y.

Beautiful tree. What is it.?

Sorce
 

Velodog2

Chumono
Messages
950
Reaction score
2,065
Location
Central Maryland
@NorthTXacer I agree with Sorce about the jins. The main one is worthy, all other small ones pale in comparison and just clutter and draw attention from “the one”. Plus they are out of scale. Except for that other thick one that is not very apparent in the main photo.

Great tree, styling, and pot!
 

SantaFeBonsai

Shohin
Messages
422
Reaction score
4,317
That one jin has got to be one of the most interesting and beautiful I've ever seen.

I feel like removing the straighter ones may enhance its awesomeness.
Or.
Destroy the whole thing.

Definitely Ponder worthy.

Wait wait....
After further inspection....

View attachment 166712

That one....in the other pic...kills all happy flow of the other...WAY more beautiful jins.

Dorian has a U.
You'll have a Y.

Beautiful tree. What is it.?

Sorce

I'm really starting to like your suggestion. But the thought of changing anything that was styled in Bend Oregon seems like blasphemy.
 

Dorian Fourie

Chumono
Messages
716
Reaction score
2,010
Location
Johannesburg South Africa
USDA Zone
9b
During August I went on a dig here in Natal South Africa and one species of tree that I dug was a Premna mooiensis. It was my first real dig so when I saw this tree, I just loved the movement on the long branches and I just thought literati.
This one branch has so much movement and character on it that I can wait to develop it into literati.
IMG_5942.JPG IMG_5941.JPG IMG_5940.JPG

That brings me to my question. If this was yours, how you you develop it. Would love some ideas and thoughts on this?

Here are some of mine.

1. Air layer it at the red area and the yellow area. The piece of the yellow will become its own literati and the rest of the trunk above the red will be developed.
Idea 1.jpg

2. Airlayer the yellow and orange off to develop as 2 new literati. Red use the new buds to grow out and downwards for future pad development. These premna back bud everywhere so I do not think it would be a problem to get multiple new branches for pads in the future
Idea 2.jpg

3. Airlayer at the red and use all available branches to develop pads

Idea 3.jpg
 
Top Bottom