Intelligent conversation of the Literati

[sorce]

2.

Sorce

 

[M. Frary]

I'd do plan 3. Then see if I wanted to change it later.

 

[Rusty Davis]

I would go with a custom pot and leave that great little bottom on it

 

[defra]

Wow finaly finished reading this thread!
Learned allot currently i am in the proces of creating a juniper into the literati style and find this thread verry helpfull to read all the different opinions from fellow enthausiasts
Since i am only two years into bonsai and this will be my first attempt !

Ill show now my steps in the preparation process

Step one:
wrapped up the trunk real tight with strong non stretching bandage.


Step two:
placed two 5 mm aluminumum wires allong the lenght of the trunk


Step three:
Wrapped the trunk up tight with raffia and wired the trunk with two 6 mm aluminum wires


Step four:
Wired all the branches and kept looking at it fora while to see the tree covered the unwanted branches with white cloth to get a better idea of how to make the bends and decide the keepe



Step five:
Wrapped up the trunk in wet towel and keep it wet for a week to help to get it as supple as it can get.


Now this is maybe interesting for all of us!
i made a 360 video of the tree to give you all a good clear idea of the tree.
I am realy curious what front you all like the most and hopefully you can explain what you personaly would do to let the tree bring out your personal "literati feel"

After ive got some opinions its time to put everything one can learn in this thread from theory to practice!

Heres the video:

Maybe it was not so great to make the video with the towels still on ?
let me know if it would be helpfull to do another without the towels

 

[Vance Wood]

Maybe you need to define in your mind what a literati tree is. I know you have studied this thread but can you find any one place that clearly defines the style that is universally accepted? The entire process of a Literati is to violate the rules to a degree, and establish an image of minimalism.

 

[defra]

Maybe you need to define in your mind what a literati tree is. I know you have studied this thread but can you find any one place that clearly defines the style that is universally accepted? The entire process of a Literati is to violate the rules to a degree, and establish an image of minimalism.

For myself i have a clear image of what i personaly would define as a literati tree.
For me that is either coniferous or decideous/evergreen species that show signs of strugling to survive.
trunk could be twisted and gnarly or straight as a telephone pole but it should be tall and not to thick and quite taperless.
As you say less is more i too do think that a literati only needs a few branches in the top of the tree, the fewer branches the more strugling it will apear imo.

Also i think that coniferous species have the advantage to create an older/drama feel to them by adding some deadwood or having just one single live vein that feeds the living part of the tree.

Not that in general i dislike deadwood on decideous species but since literati are mostly thin trunked and thin branched the deadwood will not last long on most of the decideous species so i prefer an old looking rugged bark over deadwood on decideous species

In the netherlands we realy dont have much "real nature" most of the forrest are planted i think and the the most literati we will see are tree's that try to outgrow the shadows of other tree's to survive and mostly those tree's are broadleaf tree's

from what i understand out of this thread is that some will say this is literati and some say it isnt because their own personal preference of caracteristics a "literati" tree should have.

This is the reason why i ask for opinions from others here what they would or would not do with this tree to see what the different aproaches would be and specialy why so i can learn from their perspectives

 

[Vance Wood]

For myself i have a clear image of what i personaly would define as a literati tree.
For me that is either coniferous or decideous/evergreen species that show signs of strugling to survive.
trunk could be twisted and gnarly or straight as a telephone pole but it should be tall and not to thick and quite taperless.
As you say less is more i too do think that a literati only needs a few branches in the top of the tree, the fewer branches the more strugling it will apear imo.

Also i think that coniferous species have the advantage to create an older/drama feel to them by adding some deadwood or having just one single live vein that feeds the living part of the tree.

Not that in general i dislike deadwood on decideous species but since literati are mostly thin trunked and thin branched the deadwood will not last long on most of the decideous species so i prefer an old looking rugged bark over deadwood on decideous species

In the netherlands we realy dont have much "real nature" most of the forrest are planted i think and the the most literati we will see are tree's that try to outgrow the shadows of other tree's to survive and mostly those tree's are broadleaf tree's

from what i understand out of this thread is that some will say this is literati and some say it isnt because their own personal preference of caracteristics a "literati" tree should have.

This is the reason why i ask for opinions from others here what they would or would not do with this tree to see what the different aproaches would be and specialy why so i can learn from their perspectives

You're right you have defined the major parameter of all Literati; personal preference. The point being; if you are satisfied with what you have done and some one says you can't do that-----your simple reply should be "Who says?" That should shut up the criticism.

 

[Wilson]

Good idea making a little video. I think you could as you mentioned keep the top foliage, but pull it down drastically. Or you could keep one of the midway branches, and make a deadwood top. I look forward to seeing where you take it

 

[defra]

You're right you have defined the major parameter of all Literati; personal preference. The point being; if you are satisfied with what you have done and some one says you can't do that-----your simple reply should be "Who says?" That should shut up the criticism.

Thats true but this is not only so with literati styles but with every style there are plenty of rules out there...
but the same as in life breaking the rules now and then makes you realy enjoy your life and gives you the feeling you are actualy living your own

Same for me with bonsai sure its nice to achieve the goal to create a show worthy tree with as few flaws as possible wich is formed by "the book" but my own enjoyment of the tree's i look at everyday in my backyard is the most important to me.

My teacher said this last time we had class
if you want a bonsai shaped in the form of a penis you should, and let no one tell you its not good because if thats what you want thats what is truely important
I couldnt agree more with that statement lol we get told enough what we have to do in our lives, bonsai is a hobby what we do for our enjoyment and everyone is and should be allowed to express themself in this beautifull living form of art the way they want to!

 

[defra]

Good idea making a little video. I think you could as you mentioned keep the top foliage, but pull it down drastically. Or you could keep one of the midway branches, and make a deadwood top. I look forward to seeing where you take it

Thank you !
That deadwood top idea is one of the reasons why i did not yet prune the little branch at the inside of the curve off just yet its my backup plan if anything goes wrong with aplying the bends since ive never bended a trunk the way i am about to do

Could you please explain why in your opinion it should be pulled down drastically?

I mean in the video i speak of two ways of bringing down the top would you prefer the long section bended down i talk about first or the seccond option with the shorter section bended down if i interpetate "drastically" right you mean the first option ?

 

[Wilson]

 

[defra]

View attachment 179281View attachment 179282View attachment 179283View attachment 179284View attachment 179285

Thnx i already tought thats what you ment
I wonder if i bend down the top section it probably ends up more like this:

 

[my nellie]

Step three:

View attachment 179235

Step five:

View attachment 179237

Provided that you asked for opinions and if I was to suggest, I would say that your tree shown in those two photos has an appealing movement already, pertinent to literati form... So, to my opinion no drastic intervention needed
Some bending is needed however only in the lower part of the trunk and a change in potting angle.
Of course you will get rid of the biggest part of foliage and keep some sparse green on selected branches. I know you said that you are keeping as much foliage for health reasons, but as soon as those sacrifice branches will be gone the tree will emit a completely different image and you will be then able to better decide which direction the remaining branches will go.

 

[my nellie]

Thats true but this is not only so with literati styles but with every style there are plenty of rules out there...
but the same as in life breaking the rules now and then makes you realy enjoy your life and gives you the feeling you are actualy living your own
Same for me with bonsai sure its nice to achieve the goal to create a show worthy tree with as few flaws as possible wich is formed by "the book" but my own enjoyment of the tree's i look at everyday in my backyard is the most important to me.
My teacher said this last time we had class
if you want a bonsai shaped in the form of a penis you should, and let no one tell you its not good because if thats what you want thats what is truely important
I couldnt agree more with that statement lol we get told enough what we have to do in our lives, bonsai is a hobby what we do for our enjoyment and everyone is and should be allowed to express themself in this beautifull living form of art the way they want to!

That's very simplistic, to my opinion.
If you restrict yourself in your own personal enjoyment, then of course you can call the work of your hands any possible way as it pleases you.
But please remember, bonsai as an artifact is a two-way ticket.... and in essence this is the reason why you have asked other opinions, or is it not?

 

[defra]

That's very simplistic, to my opinion.
If you restrict yourself in your own personal enjoyment, then of course you can call the work of your hands any possible way as it pleases you.
But please remember, bonsai as an artifact is a two-way ticket.... and in essence this is the reason why you have asked other opinions, or is it not?

[ Sure its nice to achieve the goal to create a show worthy tree with as few flaws as possible wich is formed by "the book" ]

this means i still want to create bonsai as they are ment to be and according to the rules that are set by the history of this artform.
i will keep on trying to improve any tree i got and train on techniques needed to do so, but its not like every tree in my collection will be perfect and that a few if not many may have flaws that are in japan just not done.
so i mean with my own enjoyment that i am aware of this and choose to appriciate the flaws and see them as something i can stil be proud of and enjoy watching at so imo its not a restriction at all


I have a fairly good idea on what i would do based on what i see as a literati styled tree and i am sure i would like the outcome.

The reason to ask for opinions is probably the same why this thread was started i am wondering what people would do to improve my tree into their mental model literati form.

so far you and wilson responded and both with different suggestions and thats what i think is something to learn from its the same tree but still two different images and paths towards the final form of this tree.
There might be over a dozen of paths to take and all results will be labeled literati in the end

So in a way yes thats why i ask for opinions but its also to learn the different ways of seeing the literati desired characteristics

 

[my nellie]

... ...There might be over a dozen of paths to take and all results will be labeled literati in the end
So in a way yes thats why i ask for opinions but its also to learn the different ways of seeing the literati desired characteristics

I would like to elaborate a little on what you have said, if you don't mind...
I can see in your words the two terms of "form" and "style"
The main characteristics of the trunk will reveal the form of literati, but the personal touch of each artisan and the manner in which the form is displayed will result in the style of each tree.
To my taste, a literati form tree is an elegant and internally beautiful tree rather than an externally pretty tree with great impact.
So again, by looking at the photos, your tree has already a beautiful natural movement in the trunk and this means that my eye can find the beauty in this simple and elegant movement. It needs some years more to age.

 

[defra]

I would like to elaborate a little on what you have said, if you don't mind...
I can see in your words the two terms of "form" and "style"
The main characteristics of the trunk will reveal the form of literati, but the personal touch of each artisan and the manner in which the form is displayed will result in the style of each tree.
To my taste, a literati form tree is an elegant and internally beautiful tree rather than an externally pretty tree with great impact.
So again, by looking at the photos, your tree has already a beautiful natural movement in the trunk and this means that my eye can find the beauty in this simple and elegant movement. It needs some years more to age.

Thats a great way to explain this thank you!
Thank you for the compliment on the natural movement
In 2016 the tree was bought and looked like this straight as a telephone pole:


2017 i wired the trunk for the first time but without any clue of what i was doing ?



And since two months now i have set my mind on literati for this tree

 

[my nellie]

... ...Thank you for the compliment on the natural movement
In 2016 the tree was bought and looked like this straight as a telephone pole

Then this is a successful example of what everyone of us have read about bonsai manipulation : Made by human hand with no sign of human touch
My ignorant eye likes this very much!

 

[defra]

Then this is a successful example of what everyone of us have read about bonsai manipulation : Made by human hand with no sign of human touch
My ignorant eye likes this very much!

I took my hand to it today and did what i had in mind i like the outcome i hope its still natural enough for your ignorant eye
After the wire is off that is ofcourse ?

I have to edit the photos first i will virtual the sacrifice branches off to get a clear view of what is going to stay in the end!
So later today the results!

 

[defra]

So this is the result:


Virtual without the sacrifice branches


Virtual with bonsai pot



Closeup from the top of tree