Intelligent conversation of the Literati

[leatherback]

It does not have to be up to the standards of Naka or Michelangelo to be personally satisfying.

True.
For me however, it is the challenge to see how close to these guys one can get. I might end up having to conclude "Not very close". But if you do not aim for the stars, you will never know perhaps?

 

[clem]

True.
For me however, it is the challenge to see how close to these guys one can get. I might end up having to conclude "Not very close". But if you do not aim for the stars, you will never know perhaps?

same. And "hope brings life"

 

[leatherback]

And "hope brings life"

And.. Shoot for the stars, reach the moon. Shoort for your backyard, reach the compost.

 

[leatherback]

The trees in that picture look like a field of harvested lumber, about a year after the harvest. They leave a few trees standing to reseed the land.

not exactly “literati”.

True, never meant to be a picture of a nature tree, but is was more to counter the idea that

the Japanese intended bujin to be: a tree which would otherwise be worthless for bonsai because it is too tall, too straight, has no taper, and no future without chopping low and creating an entirely new profile.

One finds these fields allover; This was this weekend:

 

[Adair M]

True, never meant to be a picture of a nature tree, but is was more to counter the idea that



One finds these fields allover; This was this weekend:
View attachment 317192

Frankly, I completely disagree with Forsooth’s whole premise about what he thinks the Japanese “intended” in regards to literati.

In fact, I tend to disagree with just about most everything Forsooth has to say about bonsai! I’m sure he’s a nice guy, but his approach to bonsai and mine are so very different, that we have little common ground.

He’s very set in his ways, and doesn’t seem willing to learn anything new (new to him, that is).

 

[Daniel son STL]

Really good thread! Took my time with it. Second half has gotten a tad cluttered but hopefully we can get it back on track. I have a cpl trees I would consider literati. Literati/bunjin, along with sumo, have become some of my favorite styles! Nothing normal about any of them!

I just wanted to add that literati is a style, no height or age requirement. Does a good literati need age?? Well of course it does, as does any good bonsai tree of any style. Are there young bonsai trees?? Well of course, weather styled in to a cascader, straight as an arrow formal upright, or even a twisted bunjin/literati.

One can style a shohin tree into literati. Keeping things to scale obviously. Even thinner trunk, smaller canopy and 8in height... (Not hand held pot).

Here are a few trees I consider to be shohin literati. although I did not measure these trees, I believe there in the shohin realm

 

[leatherback]

literati is a style, no height or age requirement

I would counter that for literati, age is part of the style

 

[Daniel son STL]

Does anybody consider this tree literati with a few broken rules??


Thick bottom section, canopy is thin although bigger than ideal.
Tree is big! Forgot measurements but I wanna say around 2.5 foot in height

 

[Daniel son STL]

I would counter that for literati, age is part of the style

Age adds character to any style, not just literati imo
This is the goal for any tree in a pot.

 

[leatherback]

Age adds character to any style, not just literati imo
This is the goal for any tree in a pot.

I am not talking about adding character. I am posing, this style is only achieved with trees that radiate age. Young trees are not bunjin

 

[clem]

I am not talking about adding character. I am posing, this style is only achieved with trees that radiate age. Young trees are not bunjin

Shisho leatherback, you mean : not convincing bunjin or not bunjin at all ?

 

[leatherback]

you mean : not convincing bunjin or not bunjin at all ?

I would counter that for literati, age is part of the style

 

[Daniel son STL]

I am not talking about adding character. I am posing, this style is only achieved with trees that radiate age. Young trees are not bunjin

what do you consider age. I consider bark age and I’m looking for bark on all of my trees, not just literati style.

If theres a tall, slender, twisted trunk and little foliage at the top and in a small finished bonsai pot. But the tree is a mere 15 years old. What kind of tree is it? I would call it bunjin no doubt even though it does not show aged bark. May not be the best example of a bunjin, but it sure as hell is no sumo,
Over time age will only add to the beauty.

 

[clem]

Shisho leatherback, look at this https://bonsaitonight.com/2020/07/03/decandling-young-bunjin-pines/



So Jonas Dupuish is wrong to call it a bunjin ?

 

[leatherback]

Bunjin is a style characterized by hardship. Trees that have spent lots of time trying to stay alive in harsh conditions. For me, this is in direct contrast with young trees. Bark, scars etc are signs of age.

If yu have a broom, a formal upright and informal upright: You can have all these as young trees. But for me, it seems not possible with literati

 

[leatherback]

So Jonas Dupuish is wrong to call it a bunjin ?

Who am I to call someones opnion wrong.
I was just posing, a bunjin needs age.

To me the shown tree does in no way convey any emotion, or feeling. It is just a young tree without branching in a pot. I would certainly not show it as an example of literati.

 

[Daniel son STL]

Shisho leatherback, look at this https://bonsaitonight.com/2020/07/03/decandling-young-bunjin-pines/

View attachment 319904

So Jonas Dupuish is wrong to call it a bunjin ?

This is not a fine example of literati. It is a literati in training though for sure. Might take a few years

 

[Woocash]

Shisho leatherback, look at this https://bonsaitonight.com/2020/07/03/decandling-young-bunjin-pines/

View attachment 319904

So Jonas Dupuish is wrong to call it a bunjin ?

I would call it a bunjin in training or potential bunjin, but not bunjin yet. This is clearly a young tree with a whole multitude of possibilities before it. To me, a bunjin (and possibly any declared style bonsai) should exhibit signs of having lived a life where it’s look is a result of certain conditions. I’ve seen a million of saplings like this one, but I cant just put them in a pot and call them bonsai. I think it is easier to belie age with other styles because a full, dense canopy is a hallmark of a mature tree, whereas bunjin can’t rely on this. The age of the trunk is imperative in creating the illusion.

 

[clem]

Who am I to call someones opnion wrong.
I was just posing, a bunjin needs age.

To me the shown tree does in no way convey any emotion, or feeling. It is just a young tree without branching in a pot. I would certainly not show it as an example of literati.

So what style is this pine ?
ps : the funny thing here is that you disagree with a great & famous pro , like me on another topic i disagree with Vance.. but i don't consider your thought as "hilariously sad" lol

 

[leatherback]

ps : the funny thing here is that you disagree with a great & famous pro , like me on another topic i disagree with Vance.. but i don't consider your thought as "hilariously sad" lol

Yet I do not go and tell your famous pro (who is it?) to go watch a video of Ryan Neil to understand what a literati is, now do I?
Get over yourself. I am not here for highschool behaviour.