Intelligent conversation of the Literati

[Adair M]

Another angle of my tallest Shore Pine. It tops out at 5’3” from rim of pot.View attachment 320831

The part I circled in yellow isn’t needed.

 

[ghues]

The part I circled in yellow isn’t needed.

View attachment 331191

Thanks for your thoughts Adair, you might be right..... but for now I need all the foliage to enhance its growth as it was repotted back in April. As I’ve stated before IMHO it has a lot of potential, many options and needs much more refined pad development.
Here’s another angle.

 

[penumbra]

You've got a really sweet set up there.

 

[Forsoothe!]

Thanks for your thoughts Adair, you might be right..... but for now I need all the foliage to enhance its growth as it was repotted back in April. As I’ve stated before IMHO it has a lot of potential, many options and needs much more refined pad development.
Here’s another angle.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and allow that the larger the overall bunjin, the larger the amount of foliage that is acceptable. Granted, this is a WIP and someday there will be less foliage, but there needs to be some amount that will keep the tree alive and well and that amount needs to be established by balancing the roots and the foliage. That's a back-and-forth series of reducing each side of the equation and it takes time, never rushed. As it stands now, these trees look old and that's half of the requirement.

 

[Adair M]

Thanks for your thoughts Adair, you might be right..... but for now I need all the foliage to enhance its growth as it was repotted back in April. As I’ve stated before IMHO it has a lot of potential, many options and needs much more refined pad development.
Here’s another angle.

Interesting...

I’m looking at the size of the rootball vs the amount of foliage, and I see a high mounded rootball trying to sustain a large amount of foliage relative to the amount of roots.

If you had to mound the rootball that high in order to get it into that pot, the roots weren’t yet ready. And, really, that mound is too much. There will be erosion, and that damages the surface roots, and so they die, which creates aIt roots, which makes it even harder to get the root system into a shallow configuration... it’s a viscous cycle... created by pushing an immature root system into a bonsai pot too fast.

I know I sound hypercritical, I’m trying to be helpful, and I think you can reverse it if you act soon. You have a great piece of material! Which can be ruined by trying to push it along too fast. And I know you don’t want that!

Go to google, and search “literati bonsai”, then look at the images. Most of the trees will have either no mound at all, or very small ones.

 

[ghues]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and allow that the larger the overall bunjin, the larger the amount of foliage that is acceptable. Granted, this is a WIP and someday there will be less foliage, but there needs to be some amount that will keep the tree alive and well and that amount needs to be established by balancing the roots and the foliage. That's a back-and-forth series of reducing each side of the equation and it takes time, never rushed. As it stands now, these trees look old and that's half of the requirement.

Thanks....I’m in no rush with this tree, There is still a lot to do and seeing as though I collected it I am very familiar with this one and it’s good points and flaws.......and I do appreciate @Adair M ’s comments as I don’t mind trying to see my trees through others.

 

[ghues]

Interesting...

I’m looking at the size of the rootball vs the amount of foliage, and I see a high mounded rootball trying to sustain a large amount of foliage relative to the amount of roots.

If you had to mound the rootball that high in order to get it into that pot, the roots weren’t yet ready. And, really, that mound is too much. There will be erosion, and that damages the surface roots, and so they die, which creates aIt roots, which makes it even harder to get the root system into a shallow configuration... it’s a viscous cycle... created by pushing an immature root system into a bonsai pot too fast.

I know I sound hypercritical, I’m trying to be helpful, and I think you can reverse it if you act soon. You have a great piece of material! Which can be ruined by trying to push it along too fast. And I know you don’t want that!

Go to google, and search “literati bonsai”, then look at the images. Most of the trees will have either no mound at all, or very small ones.

Hey Adair, many thanks for you thoughts and ideas. Having comments like yours allows me to reconsider the vision I have for my trees, which I do take into consideration, as we all see the same tree but perhaps different styles...... but we all know that a 2 dimensional photo is hardly the best way to examine our Bonsai....it can guide us, yes.

As you know most Yamadori take many years to develop let alone to refine them. I will not sacrifice a tree by rushing it, been there, done that, they RIP.
Re: the root ball; I wish I had taken photos of the collection...the roots are what the are....I am slowly reducing them.......imagine.... this tree was growing almost horizontally, it had been vertical for a number of decades but without structural supporting roots it had fallen over. This was due to the heavy snow loads in this area and the constant death of roots as the area dried out during summer months. The roots spread out almost 6’ in diameter from the base......they were on top of a very shallow rooting zone which was mostly moss over a narrow mantle of soil (barely a few inches), with bedrock below. The majority of the root system had lots of feeder roots woven into the moss so I was able to roll up almost the entire roots system.......but as you note they are still a large ball which I will tackle over the coming years. This pot is filling up very quickly with a great volume of feeder roots.

I don’t know where you get the notion that I’m “pushing it along too fast”? It was totally ready to be repotted, as you can see from this years lush growth it didn’t skip a beat this year. Yes the pot could have been a little bigger but I wanted to get it out of the patio pot it was in, unfortunately this was only pot I had that somewhat complemented the tree.
I have always looked at images of various styles and I intend to taken a lot of time with photos and sketches of this tree from different angles to determine a front and a more formal style. Will have other local more experienced mentors look at it and seek advise.
As far as a rounded top, who knows....perhaps there can be such a tree with one. I’ve spent 40 years in the forests of the PNW and have witnessed many old, even ancient trees that provide me with a Literati blue print and inspiration.
Googled Literati....found this example with a rounded top.hhhhmmmm

 

[Adair M]

Hey Adair, many thanks for you thoughts and ideas. Having comments like yours allows me to reconsider the vision I have for my trees, which I do take into consideration, as we all see the same tree but perhaps different styles...... but we all know that a 2 dimensional photo is hardly the best way to examine our Bonsai....it can guide us, yes.

As you know most Yamadori take many years to develop let alone to refine them. I will not sacrifice a tree by rushing it, been there, done that, they RIP.
Re: the root ball; I wish I had taken photos of the collection...the roots are what the are....I am slowly reducing them.......imagine.... this tree was growing almost horizontally, it had been vertical for a number of decades but without structural supporting roots it had fallen over. This was due to the heavy snow loads in this area and the constant death of roots as the area dried out during summer months. The roots spread out almost 6’ in diameter from the base......they were on top of a very shallow rooting zone which was mostly moss over a narrow mantle of soil (barely a few inches), with bedrock below. The majority of the root system had lots of feeder roots woven into the moss so I was able to roll up almost the entire roots system.......but as you note they are still a large ball which I will tackle over the coming years. This pot is filling up very quickly with a great volume of feeder roots.

I don’t know where you get the notion that I’m “pushing it along too fast”? It was totally ready to be repotted, as you can see from this years lush growth it didn’t skip a beat this year. Yes the pot could have been a little bigger but I wanted to get it out of the patio pot it was in, unfortunately this was only pot I had that somewhat complemented the tree.
I have always looked at images of various styles and I intend to taken a lot of time with photos and sketches of this tree from different angles to determine a front and a more formal style. Will have other local more experienced mentors look at it and seek advise.
As far as a rounded top, who knows....perhaps there can be such a tree with one. I’ve spent 40 years in the forests of the PNW and have witnessed many old, even ancient trees that provide me with a Literati blue print and inspiration.
Googled Literati....found this example with a rounded top.hhhhmmmm

I know how yamadori roots are. It usually requires a series of custom wooden boxes to reduce the roots down from “as collected” to bonsai pot. A couple of years in each successively better shaped box before putting it into a box.

The reason I suggested the Google images was to illustrate the shape of the rootballs, not the foliage.

You don’t have to make to top domed if you don’t like. I feel there’s just too much foliage up there, it looks top heavy.

But, I’m not there in front of it, so my perspective is just what I can see from the photo.

5 feet tall is really too tall for a bonsai. Yes, I know Michael Hagedorn’s forest is tall. And I think it’s a superb arrangement. But I think it’s really too tall to be considered “bonsai”. Of course, that’s just my personal opinion. By shortening the apex, that would, for me, help to bring it back in scale.

I think it’s a great tree, and I’m sure it will be wonderful in the future as you get it dialed in.

 

[ghues]

I know how yamadori roots are. It usually requires a series of custom wooden boxes to reduce the roots down from “as collected” to bonsai pot. A couple of years in each successively better shaped box before putting it into a box.

The reason I suggested the Google images was to illustrate the shape of the rootballs, not the foliage.

You don’t have to make to top domed if you don’t like. I feel there’s just too much foliage up there, it looks top heavy.

But, I’m not there in front of it, so my perspective is just what I can see from the photo.

5 feet tall is really too tall for a bonsai. Yes, I know Michael Hagedorn’s forest is tall. And I think it’s a superb arrangement. But I think it’s really too tall to be considered “bonsai”. Of course, that’s just my personal opinion. By shortening the apex, that would, for me, help to bring it back in scale.

I think it’s a great tree, and I’m sure it will be wonderful in the future as you get it dialed in.

Good clean conversation Adair.....
I’ve always thought it was too tall but maybe not, especially when I look at other large Bonsai. To me it’s all about balance and IMHO this tree has that.
Speaking of M.H. his past apprentice Bobby C. Suggested that this tree would make a great entrance tree and I think it works well, where I have it located. Perhaps after Covid is behind us, Bobbie and Matt R. will be back up this way and will provide some suggestions.
Ps large Bonsai in Japan are called Imperial, which are between 60-80”. You may know this but others here may not.
Cheers

 

[Adair M]

Good clean conversation Adair.....
I’ve always thought it was too tall but maybe not, especially when I look at other large Bonsai. To me it’s all about balance and IMHO this tree has that.
Speaking of M.H. his past apprentice Bobby C. Suggested that this tree would make a great entrance tree and I think it works well, where I have it located. Perhaps after Covid is behind us, Bobbie and Matt R. will be back up this way and will provide some suggestions.
Ps large Bonsai in Japan are called Imperial, which are between 60-80”. You may know this but others here may not.
Cheers

It looks great as an “entrance tree”.

For me, I think of bonsai as they would be shown at a show. On a row of tables. Your tree would be too tall for that.

When Hagedorn’s forest was at the Nationals, it had a special platform built to display it on. You could walk around it, and admire it from all sides It has a great presence, but it “feels” best displayed on its own, the centerpiece of a garden. So, to me, it’s more of a garden tree, maintained using bonsai techniques. (Rather than being a “bonsai”). That really doesnt matter, it’s a wonderful piece!

In Vietnam, they have some huge bonsai! The size of a car!

 

[ghues]

It looks great as an “entrance tree”.

For me, I think of bonsai as they would be shown at a show. On a row of tables. Your tree would be too tall for that.

When Hagedorn’s forest was at the Nationals, it had a special platform built to display it on. You could walk around it, and admire it from all sides It has a great presence, but it “feels” best displayed on its own, the centerpiece of a garden. So, to me, it’s more of a garden tree, maintained using bonsai techniques. (Rather than being a “bonsai”). That really doesnt matter, it’s a wonderful piece!

In Vietnam, they have some huge bonsai! The size of a car!

Watched a recent B.B (Eisei-en) video “the diamondback” a very large Ponderosa, not tall but really wide which would perhaps need its own table if entered into a show.
My tall Shore Pine- as you noted- its very bushy.....normally I would thin out the needles around this time of year but seeing as though it was repotted in the spring and knowing that it is still active (root tips still elongating) I will leave it to gain as much energy as it can (photosynthetic factory) over the next month or so.
As an entrance tree I still feel that it falls into the Bunjin/Literati style.

 

[Arcto]

First work on my collected Ponderosa. since this photo, I lowered the branches a little more to make the foliage narrower to match the slender nature of the trunk.

 

[River's Edge]

It is rewarding to get to this stage with a collected tree. Nice potential. If the tree were mine I would consider changes to the larger jin in the mid section on the left side. Current flow takes away from the intended design in my opinion. Sometimes less is more

 

[Tycoss]

Here is my submission for literati material. Englemann spruce collected May of 2019. I have not done anything except wire down the foliage and clean up the deadwood. It seems to have many ingredients of a decent bunjin: thin trunk with some movement, sparse foliage close to the trunk, obvious evidence of age, and subtle deadwood. I'm looking for ideas as to how to proceed once styling begins in earnest. Any thoughts/ideas?
Here are some closeups of the bark and deadwood:

 

[River's Edge]

In the second picture and in the fourth picture there is a branch that subdivides with a lower thick portion just close to an inside curve. I would consider removing the lower portion of that branch division and building a pad with the upper portion. This would expose more of the movement, including a natural jin and reduce the uniform mass of foliage in the overall area. You may wish to cover the piece with a white cloth to determine how you feel about removing before actually doing so! Can be helpful in decision making.
Not at all important to do before you are certain of the overall health of the tree and that branch in particular! Allowing the tree to grow out for a season or two would also be a good option at this point.
I understand that the picture may distort the actual and therefore my suggestion may be off base.
You will automatically have a sharper image as you begin to wire the branchlets out flat with the line of the main branches.
Very nice piece of material! What is the height and thickness of the tree?

 

[Forsoothe!]

It's all there. You just have to choose how much less...

Or less...

 

[Tycoss]

In the second picture and in the fourth picture there is a branch that subdivides with a lower thick portion just close to an inside curve. I would consider removing the lower portion of that branch division and building a pad with the upper portion. This would expose more of the movement, including a natural jin and reduce the uniform mass of foliage in the overall area. You may wish to cover the piece with a white cloth to determine how you feel about removing before actually doing so! Can be helpful in decision making.
Not at all important to do before you are certain of the overall health of the tree and that branch in particular! Allowing the tree to grow out for a season or two would also be a good option at this point.
I understand that the picture may distort the actual and therefore my suggestion may be off base.
You will automatically have a sharper image as you begin to wire the branchlets out flat with the line of the main branches.
Very nice piece of material! What is the height and thickness of the tree?

It is about an inch and a half thick and 26" from the base to the top of the jin. Thanks for the suggestions.

 

[Tycoss]

It's all there. You just have to choose how much less...
View attachment 334414
Or less...
View attachment 334415

Nice image. I'll keep that in mind. I may also tilt it a bit to the right when repotting so that the upper straight section is not directly perpendicular with the ground.

 

[River's Edge]

It is about an inch and a half thick and 26" from the base to the top of the jin. Thanks for the suggestions.

Nice proportions overall, great find!
The top would improve if the curve was not so uniform, may simply be choosing a slight change to front, planting angle, or foliage positioning as it develops.
A number of small changes can have a profound effect.
Take your time, this material is well worth the effort.

 

[LeonardB]

My juniper is staying healthy and now I am looking for the right pot to match with it in the spring of 2021.