Intelligent conversation of the Literati

thomas22

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This thread has been informative. Here is my attempt at Literati. I am in the early stages of design but I'm not really sure where to go from here. I sort of like the way it is now but I know there is a better tree in there. I will probably start a thread on this tree for design help.
White Bougi.jpeg
 
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Tycoss

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If it were mine, I'd likely cut off everything on the right to make it look even more spare and towering. I think all the foliage and flowers on the bottom right branch distracts from the graceful curves of the trunk line.
 

Mark

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No, I am saying that any bonsai to be considered Shohin, it has to be under 8 inches.

Literati can be any size.
I sent this photo to Tomohiro Masumi and asked if this tree which is much taller than 8" height but is bunjin would be allowed to be displayed at Gafuten, the premier Shohin Bonsai Exhibition in the world.
His answer:
"Yes, of course!"
Tomohiro Masumi is the Vice Chairman of the All Japan Shohin Bonsai Association.
 

Vance Wood

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I sent this photo to Tomohiro Masumi and asked if this tree which is much taller than 8" height but is bunjin would be allowed to be displayed at Gafuten, the premier Shohin Bonsai Exhibition in the world.
His answer:
"Yes, of course!"
Tomohiro Masumi is the Vice Chairman of the All Japan Shohin Bonsai Association.
Ah yes the plot thickens!!!! I realize that Shohin are defined by height size, but Literati are defined by tall and graceful, bent, twisted trunks that produce a Surrealistic image. It is in this realm that our conundrum lies. If you go by the standard rules for Shohin it is virtually impossible to have a Shohin Literati. Most would find themselves with a Mame sized tree that would not be a Mame either for the same reason.
 

Adair M

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I sent this photo to Tomohiro Masumi and asked if this tree which is much taller than 8" height but is bunjin would be allowed to be displayed at Gafuten, the premier Shohin Bonsai Exhibition in the world.
His answer:
"Yes, of course!"
Tomohiro Masumi is the Vice Chairman of the All Japan Shohin Bonsai Association.
Interesting. It wouldn't fit in a Shohin box stand. How would you display it?

I'll ask Daisaku Nomoto next week when I see him. Daisaku is also an officer of the Nippon Shohin Association.
 

Dan W.

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Very interesting thread Al! There has been quite a bit of intelligent discussion. :)

After reading all the way through, here are a few of my thoughts. Unfortunately I don't think I have much to offer for an actual definition of what Bunjin/Literati is or is not.

1. I believe that Literati and Bunjin are words that the Chinese and Japanese people use to describe feelings that certain trees give them. I may be wrong, but it seems to me that the most important part of design is not exact dimensions, branch placement or amount of movement. As Al mentioned, maybe it's the "feeling" a tree provides that matters most.
Here is part of a statement from my teacher: "I really don’t think we’re doing bonsai any more when we stray too far from the original aesthetic values that gave birth to bonsai, and those are less about how something looks than how it feels." (Michael Hagedorn)

2. Every one of us is an individual; we each see, feel and interpret things from our own perspectives and experiences. Someone mentioned earlier in the thread that we likely judge these trees based upon our personal impressions of what a bunjin tree is supposed to look like. I believe this is very often the case. We've each observed or been taught what someone else said or pictured as bunjin trees. Accurate or not, this is at least part of what shaped our definitions of bunjin. I personally enjoy seeing many great examples of gnarly, twisted and lonely looking pines in the mountains where I live. Many of these trees give me the feeling of what I imagine Literati or Bunjin to be. I also scour through endless amounts of images in books and on line that have helped to shape what I see as trees fitting this description.

3. I think the most important part of bonsai that we are still learning and discovering here in America is not how to do bonsai, but how we relate to the trees. I don't believe that "Literati" and "Bunjin" are simply words used to describe what a tree looks like to the people who originally conceived these names and ideals. Even more than a feeling, I believe these words are used in an attempt to verbalize how these people understood and related to the trees.

To me the deepest and most profound nature of bonsai can not be explained or drawn out in "how to" books. These can only be felt. The beauty of bonsai is found in both the relationship between the viewer and the tree, and the artist/s and the development of the tree. Every single artist and viewer will view and relate to each tree in their own way, and every single experience will most likely vary in and least some small way. We are shaping, caring for and growing living beings. If we're honest, these living beings likely have a more profound impact on our lives than we do on their design and care.

For "American Bonsai" to truly become it's own, we must grow beyond judging trees simply by what we see, to understanding ourselves and how we relate to the trees. It is fascinating to study the ways that the Japanese and Chinese relate/d to trees and bonsai through their own unique culture and world view; But the work that lies ahead for us is our own self discovery and understanding. It's ok (actually better than ok) if you view and relate to trees differently than the next person or someone from another culture.

Literati and Bonsai are words. If we take them too literally we may entirely miss the their original intent.

I'm off to bed, but I'll try to get a few photo's posted tomorrow of my bonsai attempts to fit the bunjin ideal, and maybe a few natural examples as well. (The ponderosa in my avatar provides a good example of the literati feeling to me.)

Dan
 

Vance Wood

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Very interesting thread Al! There has been quite a bit of intelligent discussion. :)

After reading all the way through, here are a few of my thoughts. Unfortunately I don't think I have much to offer for an actual definition of what Bunjin/Literati is or is not.

1. I believe that Literati and Bunjin are words that the Chinese and Japanese people use to describe feelings that certain trees give them. I may be wrong, but it seems to me that the most important part of design is not exact dimensions, branch placement or amount of movement. As Al mentioned, maybe it's the "feeling" a tree provides that matters most.
Here is part of a statement from my teacher: "I really don’t think we’re doing bonsai any more when we stray too far from the original aesthetic values that gave birth to bonsai, and those are less about how something looks than how it feels." (Michael Hagedorn)

2. Every one of us is an individual; we each see, feel and interpret things from our own perspectives and experiences. Someone mentioned earlier in the thread that we likely judge these trees based upon our personal impressions of what a bunjin tree is supposed to look like. I believe this is very often the case. We've each observed or been taught what someone else said or pictured as bunjin trees. Accurate or not, this is at least part of what shaped our definitions of bunjin. I personally enjoy seeing many great examples of gnarly, twisted and lonely looking pines in the mountains where I live. Many of these trees give me the feeling of what I imagine Literati or Bunjin to be. I also scour through endless amounts of images in books and on line that have helped to shape what I see as trees fitting this description.

3. I think the most important part of bonsai that we are still learning and discovering here in America is not how to do bonsai, but how we relate to the trees. I don't believe that "Literati" and "Bunjin" are simply words used to describe what a tree looks like to the people who originally conceived these names and ideals. Even more than a feeling, I believe these words are used in an attempt to verbalize how these people understood and related to the trees.

To me the deepest and most profound nature of bonsai can not be explained or drawn out in "how to" books. These can only be felt. The beauty of bonsai is found in both the relationship between the viewer and the tree, and the artist/s and the development of the tree. Every single artist and viewer will view and relate to each tree in their own way, and every single experience will most likely vary in and least some small way. We are shaping, caring for and growing living beings. If we're honest, these living beings likely have a more profound impact on our lives than we do on their design and care.

For "American Bonsai" to truly become it's own, we must grow beyond judging trees simply by what we see, to understanding ourselves and how we relate to the trees. It is fascinating to study the ways that the Japanese and Chinese relate/d to trees and bonsai through their own unique culture and world view; But the work that lies ahead for us is our own self discovery and understanding. It's ok (actually better than ok) if you view and relate to trees differently than the next person or someone from another culture.

Literati and Bonsai are words. If we take them too literally we may entirely miss the their original intent.

I'm off to bed, but I'll try to get a few photo's posted tomorrow of my bonsai attempts to fit the bunjin ideal, and maybe a few natural examples as well. (The ponderosa in my avatar provides a good example of the literati feeling to me.)

Dan
You really do not in my opinion have to go beyond your first impression in your first paragraph: You wrote---1. I believe that Literati and Bunjin are words that the Chinese and Japanese people use to describe feelings that certain trees give them. I may be wrong, but it seems to me that the most important part of design is not exact dimensions, branch placement or amount of movement. As Al mentioned, maybe it's the "feeling" a tree provides that matters most.

This is exactly what the style is, it is surrealistic at best and often fantastic marginally.
 

thumblessprimate1

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I don't know how to define literati bonsai, but I can try to describe it. I would use adjectives like: sublime, paradoxical, and poetic.
 

Smoke

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I have seen shohin bunjin as tall as thirty inches.

In bunjin it's the feel and if it feels as though the trunk and pot are in scale and the pot feels like shohin then it is Ok to display it with shohin. Of course the pot would have to be a shohin sized pot like 4 inches in diameter.
 

Vance Wood

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I don't know how to define literati bonsai, but I can try to describe it. I would use adjectives like: sublime, paradoxical, and poetic.

That's the whole purpose of the style but don't leave out the concept of minimalism. All of these esoteric traits must be represented with the least amount of elements possible. It is an expression or message like a tweet, expressed in no more than a limited number of characters,---- but it must be limited.
 

thumblessprimate1

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That's the whole purpose of the style but don't leave out the concept of minimalism. All of these esoteric traits must be represented with the least amount of elements possible. It is an expression or message like a tweet, expressed in no more than a limited number of characters,---- but it must be limited.
Yes, Vance. I actually have minimalism in mind when I said paradoxical. Literati appear simple, but I believe that they're far from that.
 

Tycoss

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Here's an aspen in early development:

This reminds me of so many trees near here. I have been advised many times to avoid aspen as bonsai. Yours gives me hope that this is a worthwhile endeavour, as I'd love to have it on my bench. I wonder if you could remove the top bit and encourage lateral growth. I usually see wild full sized "literati" aspen with only the top 1/4 of the tree. Just a suggestion.
 
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