introduction and a few questions on Indoor

cpt

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that's a fantastic reef tank what size and are you on any reef forums?
 

2Sunny

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that's a fantastic reef tank what size and are you on any reef forums?

Thanks :D

I don't want to side track this great beginner Bonsai discussion, but . . . .

. . . . . it's a 240 gallon tank, and I'm on Reef Central dot com under the username JPMagyar. I've got a long thread detailing the history plus the trials and tribulations.

JPMagyar's 240. A decade of work.



Joe in NY
 

Ross

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I hope the original poster won't mind if I add to the conversation. You see I'm in much the same boat.





No offense taken, but clearly the words of an avid artist!

As one totally new to this forum and the world of Bonsai I was wondering if you wouldn't mind expanding on the subject ever so slightly. You see I am an expert in my own little hobby world of growing hard coral and know the value of an informed opinion, but my dilemma is that I was given an "indoor" bonsai tree for Christmas and as a lover of all things alive I plan on trying my darndest to keep this little tree alive and perhaps even thriving if that is possible . . . so with that in mind here are my questions:

1) Is growing a Bonsai Tree "indoors" truly impossible?
2) Does artificial light make a difference if such light is adequate?
3) If you were in my shoes would you simply throw the tree away?
4) Would a dual 400 watt metal halide fixture with 4 T5 lamps be an adequate light?


And here is some background information on my personal situation.

I believe the tree is an Ulmus Parvifolia. I have had it since Christmas day. It has lost about a fifth of it's foliage maybe a little less. I am using the "chopstick method" to check soil moisture and watering when needed to keep the lower level moist. I have ordered a humidity tray. It gets about 8 to 9 hours of near direct light per day (at least 'til spring when the trees get leaves, but then I can move it outdoors). The room stays 65 degrees plus or minus a couple degrees.

So basically there it is . . .

Keep the tree and make a go of it, or just pack it in now and try an outdoor locally grown tree at a later date?

Thanks for any and all thoughts on the topic.

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and just for grins here's a photo of my aquarium . . .


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Hi Joe,
Your aquarium looks great, and your photography really highlights it. If you are active on the salt-water aquarium forums, you probably already know that forums in general are full of opinions and egos, and it is often difficult to sort the good advice from the bad. It is the same here, and it's even more complicated by the different locations and environments of the members, so what works for someone in California is not always applicable for someone in NY. That being said, I'll do my best to answer your questions:

1) Is growing a Bonsai Tree "indoors" truly impossible?

Yes. It is impossible to grow a show-quality bonsai tree indoors, year-round. It could be done in a temperature controlled greenhouse with proper light and humidity controls etc., but that is so far above and beyond the average hobbyist that you should put that thought from your head. Such a set-up would require so much time, expense, effort, and space, and the constant maintenance would turn you into more of an "indoor growing" hobbyist than a true bonsai artist.

2) Does artificial light make a difference if such light is adequate?

In NY, your Ulmus Parvifolia or Chinese elm should be deciduous, meaning that it will lose its leaves in the winter and go dormant until the spring. When it has no leaves, it doesn't need any light until it's time to wake up. Ideally, you would keep it outdoors until leaf drop in the fall, and then move it into an unheated garage/shed/closet/greenhouse/coldframe until spring. The exact timing of the move indoors and then back out is all dependent on the temps and conditions in your area. If you keep it indoors year-round, it will not lose it's leaves in the fall, and will essentially act like a tropical plant, growing all the time. If this is the route you choose, then yes, artificial light as a supplement will help it grow, but it will never be a good bonsai.

3) If you were in my shoes would you simply throw the tree away?

No way! I don't know your circumstances, but I'm sure you could probably find a way to grow it properly. Chinese elm is an awesome starter tree, and you can eventually keep it alongside your "better" trees later. Even if you just really, really have to keep it indoors, I'd still probably try and grow it and keep it alive, but temper your expectations significantly. That tree deserves to be outside in the sun and wind in the summer, getting a good shower from the hose, with a good full watering, water coming on down through the drain-holes, good fertilizer soak, and nice tight little green leaves and canopy. They die a slow death indoors, with long but strong shoots, over-sized and sparse leaves, little bugs in the soil, rapidly declining shape, ugh it makes me cringe. It's an uphill battle that will drive you away from bonsai after awhile.

4) Would a dual 400 watt metal halide fixture with 4 T5 lamps be an adequate light?

I'm not a light expert, but can tell you that no matter how much light you have, there is no way you can control the rest of the environment in a way to grow that tree properly indoors. Also, I would abandon the "chopstick method" for watering that many recommend and just water it fully and completely when it needs it. You cannot leave it on the windowsill when watering it, because a proper watering will result in a lot of water streaming out of the drain holes. Watering a tree gives it the oxygen it needs, and you should never skimp on the water.

I hope that helps a bit, and good luck with your tree. If I can clarify anything I said or if you have any other questions just let me know. FYI I have a Chinese elm as well, and it is outdoors right now, and was outdoors on the ground last night as it dipped down into the mid 20's.

Ross
 

2Sunny

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Ross,

Thanks so much for the great info!

So for my tree today in January would you recommend trying to induce dormancy now or keep it green until spring and transition it to dormancy next fall?

Thanks again,

Joe
 

Ross

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Ross,

Thanks so much for the great info!

So for my tree today in January would you recommend trying to induce dormancy now or keep it green until spring and transition it to dormancy next fall?

Thanks again,

Joe

That's a great question, and I'm not really sure what's best in your area. It gets pretty cold and stays cold in NY, so you probably need to protect it a bit more there than I do in Dallas. Usually mine stays outdoors unless it's going to be lower than around 20 degrees, then it goes into a little shed or into an unheated room. So far that has worked for me, and I've had my Chinese elm for 7 years now. I generally try to avoid any temperature change of more than 20-30 degrees though, so I wouldn't just stick your tree outside in the snow if you've had it indoors already. It needs to stay indoors for now or be acclimated gradually to the spot you eventually want to keep it.

Ross
 

ericN

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Growing indoors is not impossible. The key is growing the right tree. Ficus are good candidates and very forgiving.

I have been growing indoors exclusively for years here in cold Chicago with some success. No "world class tree" but I have grown trees that I'm very proud of.

I grow as low tech as possible. Makes me enjoy the hobby more. :D

I need to update the progress of my trees...... but a lot of bickering and tiresome nay saying in online forums sometimes discourage me to post stuff....

Here is a tree I grew for years and sold last year.
http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?3293-ficus-retusa-progression

Bjorn critique on this tree, its the second tree of this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7m7EFAGIjUM

Hope that helps
Eric
 
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Giga

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Growing indoors is perfectly fine and very doable! just know that nothing beat the sun! I was into reef tanks too for a very very long time and decided to take a break. here my tank before it was taken down




Those are red mangrove grown on led light since always(5 years now), It's way brighter then the image appears due to my crappy camera. I would not use Metal halide or t5 just because of how good leds are now. The fixture in the light above is made by me and is full spectrum high powered leds.The tank is gone but I'm in process of converting the whole nook into a nice tropical bonsai display. All powered by led's. I have buttonwood,ficus,bougie's,mangroves and I'm on the lookout for a nice schefflera. In summer they go outside but during winter its nice to look and be able to work on things!
 

Need2Tinker

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800 watts of metal halide is probably around 70 to 80k lumens. That's plenty of light to grow just about anything. Now light isn't our only battle. Like humidity, temp, etc. I am no expert in this hobby and like most, with the research I have done I believe outdoor Is best. I have my Chinese elm under one of my old 150 watt halides right now and it seems happy. My juniper is outside.
Beautiful tank btw! I was on RC for a while myself :)
Couple of my tanks
 

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Skinnygoomba

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I have my tropicals in the window now, they came in when the temperature outside was about the same as it was inside, so around October.

I put them in the sink to water them so that I can do so just as I do when they are outside. I stopped fertilizing chemically and I'm only doing organics until they go back outside.

They're putting out new growth and have a regular flush or new green growth and have no put out long leggy branches.

I don't work them heavily or prune them excessively indoors.
 

Zach Smith

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Just my two cents:

It's certainly possible to grow bonsai indoors. However, all too often I see beginners come to forums and their first question is, "I got this bonsai for (fill in the blank), can I grow it indoors?" It's a little like saying you got a pair of snow skis for Christmas, can you slalom down Mount Whitney on them. While it's possible to grow bonsai indoors, for the beginner you're asking an awful lot of yourself. For someone who knows literally nothing about growing bonsai, why make your first attempt trying to place your tree in the harshest environment on the planet? Bonsai is hard enough when you do everything the "easy" way, and discouragement is guaranteed at some point.

I don't want to throw too much cold water on your plans, but I hate seeing anyone get frustrated and leave the hobby before really getting started.

I just posted a blog at my site the other day aimed at the new enthusiast. You may find it helpful.

Good luck!

Zach
 
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