introduction, my collection/Photos, please help me identify something

hinmo24t

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Hey everyone, im Tom, from southeastern MA, near RI.

ive had a ficus awhile, but in the last few mos have started gathering
trees to train from around my property, and i plan on buying maybe a fruiting fig or citrus soon. been watching nigel saunders and herons bonsai...
my ficus i just repotted:
Eu0axEk.jpg


i have been training a few red maple/norway maple in ground, which i hard cut and theyre reshooting.
I plan to let them go through summer and prune before winter. i think ill leave them in the ground until the springtime
next year unless someone suggests potting them in the fall. they are 3" and 4" diameter and reshooting nicely (5" shoots now)
in-ground hard cuts i also have a twin-Lilac hardcut reshooting near the maples. maybe by end of summer they will have grown enough to handle a repotting, but i dont mind being patient on the in-ground ones.

This is kind of cool - i have a laying-down 100' Black Cherry fully alive overhanging my property. i am air-layering two
sections currently, will be very happy if those work out and i have a lot of material to get it right in future if not.
gCnxNo2.jpg


training in pots:

- 2 or 3 eastern white or red cedar with the non-prickly leaves (the flat style) going,
theyre 3 of 4' and because such slow growers i havent done much to them, need to see how they go, maybe wire but i
prefer non wire style. these grow in wet areas of MA/swamp style cedars. not sure how much success ill have with them, i have option to harvest some 1' ones that might take to bonsai better.


JnqH2J0.jpg


-i have two european Beech, one which will be a keeper as it was hard cut naturally and found with umbrella growth, 1" diameter trunk. the other one i hard cut but i heard they are very slow growers so well see how that goes, the good beech isnt in any pics yet
- 2 white Birch just 3" tall, looking to hard cut them once i know they take to trianing pots...theyre tall and thin though right now
ElGDvNu.jpg

-1 small Dogwood sapling, thin, similar to the Birch above
fZH3zdG.jpg

-red maple and norway maple sapplings under 10"
-japanese maple in front yard, had i not pruned so much this summer id air layer some of this too
some veggies and training plants...dont mind to the left of garden, fully legal where i am.
ZPrrDv0.jpg


heres what i need help with!!!:
i was on a dog walk around my property, keeping an eye for a white oak, and down low in brush/weeds/congestion i saw
this plant - the blue hue got my eye. the root system was amazing, spliced out flat aerials and a lot of fine roots, small taproot i cut back. i dont know what this is???? in th epic i just found it, i didnt do much of anything to it until i know it takes to the pot. theres drainage in it, etc so dont mind that.
im thinking it is a red cedar, blue (colorado??) spruce, douglas fir, but not positive...
hBNo0lg.jpg

TYM7Udp.jpg


i have this as well not positive what it is, as well, and i havent done anything to it yet:
HJVBH8D.jpg



Thanks everyone,
Tom
 
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Wires_Guy_wires

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I think your 'flat' ERC might actually be a thuja.
Thuja has flat fronds, overlapping scales with sometimes a bit pointy ends if you prune them a lot.

Edit: I think they're called white cedar in the US. Excuse me for reading your post in a hurry and reading it wrong.
 

hinmo24t

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I think your 'flat' ERC might actually be a thuja.
Thuja has flat fronds, overlapping scales with sometimes a bit pointy ends if you prune them a lot.

Edit: I think they're called white cedar in the US. Excuse me for reading your post in a hurry and reading it wrong.
cool, yeah i think eastern white cedar. ill look into what you referred to as synonymous.
i watch an old nigel saunders video of a cedar and would be pumped if those develop. not an easy or common one from what ive heard.
ill prob bail on the birch.
just found an awesome field guide for a college campus near my house. flowering dogwood (native to where i live), crimson beech,
some good holly (not english) so im going to keep it in mind for looking around my property nearby.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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Nice collection. A good one for "easing your way into bonsai".

On your Ficus, let a few branches extend for bit, to use as cuttings. You will have more fun with the ficus cuttings than with the "Fat Tubers" of the original. The cuttings can be prevented from forming those "tubers" which are difficult to design around tree wise.

The eastern white cedar, the 2 tall trees. Nice. Something to consider, most bonsai that you see in shows are allow first to get big, often 5 to 10 times their final height. They then are brought down to bonsai size. It is actually rare for bonsai to only be "grown up" into bonsai size. A tree often has to spend time as a much larger specimen in order to develop larger diameter trunks.

Your 4 to 5 foot tall white cedars would make pretty nice 12 inch to 24 inch bonsai. Think about it, start a new thread for each, and over the years we can help talk you through how to do that. They need another year or two in a pot before really getting started on reducing their size, but keep it in mind.

About names. This site is international. We have members from more than 50 different countries, and at least that many different languages. Common names are confusing. What is called "cedar" can be any of a dozen different trees depending on where in the world you are. If you know the scientific name of the tree you are discussing, try to use the scientific or botanical name at least once in the first post of a thread. If you don't know the scientific name, some "tree nerd" like myself will usually supply the name at some point if people are getting confused. So your white cedar have the scientific name of Thuja occidentalis. And can be called white cedar, or arborvitae or hackamatak in North America, Lebensbaum in Germany, with just about every language having its own version of a name.

Your last 2 "mystery trees" appear to be eastern red cedar, also known as, ERC, or botanical name Juniperus virginiana. It is a true juniper, related to the junipers used in landscape plantings. In general, junipers are excellent for bonsai, most of the junipers respond well to bonsai techniques. Except ERC. Unfortunately ERC tends to be a "problem child". There are a few nice ERC bonsai, but they are rare compared to the other juniper species. But go ahead and see what you can do with them. Learning to keep ERC healthy will apply to any of the other junipers. In the long run, ERC are famous for being susceptible to cedar-apple rust. You will see weird "alien like" yellow growths that ooze and turn to goo. That's cedar-apple rust. The other problem is the foliage tends to remain loose, it never tightens up to "foliage pads" that are so popular in Shimpaku juniper bonsai. But you can work with them for a while and see what you think. There are those that like them.

Your locally native red maple, is Acer rubrum. This one is good for bonsai, though best for larger style trees, usually 24 inches tall or taller. The sugar maple, A. saccharum, and the norway maple, Acer platanoides, both have larger leaves that do not reduce well in bonsai cultivation. I won't say they are impossible, but chances for success will only be if you go for fairly large trees, 4 foot tall or so, which is almost too big to be bonsai. Smaller than that the Norway and sugar maples are just plain difficult or impossible to get to proper proportions.

Your wild, native cherry air layers will be interesting. I have not had much experience with cherries.

Birch are another that can be used for bonsai, but often one has proportion issues with getting leaves, branching and the internode lengths (distance between leaves) all in proportion.

Oh, and ganja does not make good bonsai, you better just cut that and smoke it at the end of summer.

So I enjoyed looking at your collection.
 

HorseloverFat

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Greetings, wanderer. Shake your boots off and warm your roots by the fire. :)

Nice collection and introduction, everything has pretty much been touched on already. Just bending down a welcoming branch.

Pleasure to make your acquaintance.


Oh, and ganja does not make good bonsai, you better just cut that and smoke it at the end of summer.

Agreed! Tis’ a YIELD plant, you’ll want to only alter it’s appearance, shape, or habit to support more and more flowers...

However, when I was working a smaller warehouse medicinal grow (25-30 clients) BEFORE MI legalized across the board, one of the “mothers” (silver lights) eventually resembled an ancient maple tree... pretty neat... but “mother” wasn’t for flowers.... just genetics. ;)
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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Trees whose leaves reduce well to make nicely proportioned bonsai, there are quite a few. For locally native trees, look for any of your locally native elms. American elm, slippery elm, and any other native elm, or even the introduced invasive species elms, are all good for bonsai.

Hornbeam, Carpinus caroliniana, makes excellent bonsai. It is easier to work with than beech. Also hop flowered hornbeam, Ostrya virginiana, is another species that leaves reduce well to make nice proportionate bonsai. Local crab apples, and even culinary apples make nice blooming bonsai. For culinary apples the fruit are all out of proportion, so most don't let them go to fruit. Beech make good bonsai, though they have some tricks that make them a little difficult for beginners. I have not worked with holly, but I've seen our native deciduous holly, Ilex verticillata make good bonsai.
 

hinmo24t

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Nice collection. A good one for "easing your way into bonsai".

On your Ficus, let a few branches extend for bit, to use as cuttings. You will have more fun with the ficus cuttings than with the "Fat Tubers" of the original. The cuttings can be prevented from forming those "tubers" which are difficult to design around tree wise.

The eastern white cedar, the 2 tall trees. Nice. Something to consider, most bonsai that you see in shows are allow first to get big, often 5 to 10 times their final height. They then are brought down to bonsai size. It is actually rare for bonsai to only be "grown up" into bonsai size. A tree often has to spend time as a much larger specimen in order to develop larger diameter trunks.

Your 4 to 5 foot tall white cedars would make pretty nice 12 inch to 24 inch bonsai. Think about it, start a new thread for each, and over the years we can help talk you through how to do that. They need another year or two in a pot before really getting started on reducing their size, but keep it in mind.

About names. This site is international. We have members from more than 50 different countries, and at least that many different languages. Common names are confusing. What is called "cedar" can be any of a dozen different trees depending on where in the world you are. If you know the scientific name of the tree you are discussing, try to use the scientific or botanical name at least once in the first post of a thread. If you don't know the scientific name, some "tree nerd" like myself will usually supply the name at some point if people are getting confused. So your white cedar have the scientific name of Thuja occidentalis. And can be called white cedar, or arborvitae or hackamatak in North America, Lebensbaum in Germany, with just about every language having its own version of a name.

Your last 2 "mystery trees" appear to be eastern red cedar, also known as, ERC, or botanical name Juniperus virginiana. It is a true juniper, related to the junipers used in landscape plantings. In general, junipers are excellent for bonsai, most of the junipers respond well to bonsai techniques. Except ERC. Unfortunately ERC tends to be a "problem child". There are a few nice ERC bonsai, but they are rare compared to the other juniper species. But go ahead and see what you can do with them. Learning to keep ERC healthy will apply to any of the other junipers. In the long run, ERC are famous for being susceptible to cedar-apple rust. You will see weird "alien like" yellow growths that ooze and turn to goo. That's cedar-apple rust. The other problem is the foliage tends to remain loose, it never tightens up to "foliage pads" that are so popular in Shimpaku juniper bonsai. But you can work with them for a while and see what you think. There are those that like them.

Your locally native red maple, is Acer rubrum. This one is good for bonsai, though best for larger style trees, usually 24 inches tall or taller. The sugar maple, A. saccharum, and the norway maple, Acer platanoides, both have larger leaves that do not reduce well in bonsai cultivation. I won't say they are impossible, but chances for success will only be if you go for fairly large trees, 4 foot tall or so, which is almost too big to be bonsai. Smaller than that the Norway and sugar maples are just plain difficult or impossible to get to proper proportions.

Your wild, native cherry air layers will be interesting. I have not had much experience with cherries.

Birch are another that can be used for bonsai, but often one has proportion issues with getting leaves, branching and the internode lengths (distance between leaves) all in proportion.

Oh, and ganja does not make good bonsai, you better just cut that and smoke it at the end of summer.

So I enjoyed looking at your collection.

appreciate the info and your time; glad you enjoyed

regarding the EWC you discussed, ironically (embarrassingly) i had a 2.5" diameter cut one that i repotted, then i read that the cedars take a super long time to re-branch, to the point where
itd be 2' long stump for a while and i ditched it (my dog plays fetch with it cut up now after she debarked it)...they are slow growers i read. all of that could be wrong and id regret the thicker one i ditched. im happy that two of the three i have are .5" > and ill consider your input on letting them go a few years before reduction/hardcut. one of them i have in the blue/teal argyle pot is a good 3/4" or 1" thick.
ill keep them going and create threads eventually. i do find those cedars nice from growing up, its a neat tree to me and ancient looking.

great info on the varying names per geography. ironic too, just had the cedar vs arborvitae discussion with my buddy. ill prob send him your response in an email soon.

i think youre correct about the two red cedars, at least the one with the christmas tree profile in my breezeway. the other little blue one probably is as well but i havent seen any other example of that
in my searches around here, because it is just 10" yet dense and blue as opposed to the more spaced out prickly young ERC in the breezeway with different profile. the little blue was underneath ground cover weeds, etc so maybe that is why. a few people think juniper communis, KW bonsai thought so, theyre about 8 hours away from where i live.

good call on the apple rust too :( what a shame, ill see what comes of them i suppose anyway

iYXcyaK.png


ive heard about the perils of big leaf maples for bonsai, but im happy that the two in ground ones i have going are 3-4" diameter and i will have the option for that
'larger' bonsai for them, which im cool with. theyre hardcut already and i looked at the nebula before hard cutting and theyre fantastic (elephant feet)
the lilac could be interesting too im hoping. ill get some pics of those at some point, maybe ill change this thread to my 'build' thread as if this was a car enthusiast site lol

heres the cherry air layers:

pZVybs3.jpg



photo of my better beech (euro i think) they grow awesome around where i live, but slow growth, i found and repotted this thing like 3 weeks ago...
it has cigar buds on the right hand side of the pic, and im not sure if i broke the lower limb or if its been growing with that wound

jPBVbFW.jpg


that ganj is 'clones' from a friend who is a level 10 enthusiast, haha, theyre good genes.
im a surfer/pro business/accountant/weird mix, enjoy a toke over drinking (im 33 and havent drank since 23ish)
so those plants save me $20 a week in the long run :)
 

hinmo24t

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Trees whose leaves reduce well to make nicely proportioned bonsai, there are quite a few. For locally native trees, look for any of your locally native elms. American elm, slippery elm, and any other native elm, or even the introduced invasive species elms, are all good for bonsai.

Hornbeam, Carpinus caroliniana, makes excellent bonsai. It is easier to work with than beech. Also hop flowered hornbeam, Ostrya virginiana, is another species that leaves reduce well to make nice proportionate bonsai. Local crab apples, and even culinary apples make nice blooming bonsai. For culinary apples the fruit are all out of proportion, so most don't let them go to fruit. Beech make good bonsai, though they have some tricks that make them a little difficult for beginners. I have not worked with holly, but I've seen our native deciduous holly, Ilex verticillata make good bonsai.

i noted the elm and hornbeam, thanks. ive ruled out ash. have a big mission to get some good dogwood going
ruled out any Ash
im going to get a holly going, the one with smaller leafs i know where some is. not the American or English holly, its this one: Inkberry Ilex glabra
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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Ilex glabra, Ilex verticillata, both are good for bonsai.
I have seen thousands of Juniperus virginiana seedlings, all over our family blueberry farm. Both of your seedlings are in range for the natural variations of J. virginiana. Time and maturity will show whether the one is J. communis or not. My money is on J. virginiana. Note- not all seedlings of J virginiana get cedar-apple rust, some clones seem to resist it. You can have a dozen different ERC on a bench, and maybe 8 out of 12 will come down with cedar-apple rust, but the other 4 may resist it for years.

By the same token, 12 shimpaku junipers on a bench, and at most maybe one of them might come down with cedar-apple rust. Most of the time, Shimpaku seem immune to it. Juniper communis is not as prone to cedar-apple rust as J. virginiana.

This could vary depending on how virulent the local race of cedar-apple rust fungi is. But you get the idea.

THat is the interesting thing about collecting trees, they do not come with name tags.

Dogwood is interesting. I've seen photos of a few beautiful specimens as bonsai. Very do-able.
 

hinmo24t

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Ilex glabra, Ilex verticillata, both are good for bonsai.
I have seen thousands of Juniperus virginiana seedlings, all over our family blueberry farm. Both of your seedlings are in range for the natural variations of J. virginiana. Time and maturity will show whether the one is J. communis or not. My money is on J. virginiana. Note- not all seedlings of J virginiana get cedar-apple rust, some clones seem to resist it. You can have a dozen different ERC on a bench, and maybe 8 out of 12 will come down with cedar-apple rust, but the other 4 may resist it for years.

By the same token, 12 shimpaku junipers on a bench, and at most maybe one of them might come down with cedar-apple rust. Most of the time, Shimpaku seem immune to it. Juniper communis is not as prone to cedar-apple rust as J. virginiana.

This could vary depending on how virulent the local race of cedar-apple rust fungi is. But you get the idea.

THat is the interesting thing about collecting trees, they do not come with name tags.

Dogwood is interesting. I've seen photos of a few beautiful specimens as bonsai. Very do-able.

one again, thanks.

i went out again last evening behind my house and found two others. a tad larger and i believe they are the Juniper Virg*** youre talking about, good call.
i saw on one of them a gall, the size of a marble and cut it off the tree, it was attached to a dead branch.

QUESTION: should i bail on these eastern red cedars because of apple rust in future and on one of them right now? i dont want it to spread
to all three of them and certainly not to me eastern White Cedars or other plants?
would keeping them tiny and indoors help? i might replant them away from my house or garden if so.


im looking forward to the holly by the way - im going to scout some out, maybe make a few cuts and harvest them in the fall. they are strong winter plants i know
from having a lot of holly around where i live.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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The eastern white cedars, Thuja, are totally immune to the cedar-apple rust. (CAR) You do not have to worry about your Thuja.

The CAR is unique, in that it requires a different host to complete each phase of its life cycle. Spore land on a Juniper, and it will only infect species in the genus Juniperus, these spores will not infect any other conifer. Some junipers are pretty much totally immune to them. The principal host is Juniperus virginiana, Eastern Red Cedar. The CAR becomes systemic in the tissues of the Juniper, once infected the Juniper will produce spores every year. But these spores will not infect another juniper. Instead they must infect the leaves of an apple tree. Any apple, crab apple or culinary apple will do. It causes a necrotic spotting of the apple leaves. For the apple the infection stays only in the leaves. It does not spread through the tree. Toward end of summer the black spots on the apple trees shed spores, and these spores will only infect Junipers. So it goes back and forth between apples and junipers. Never apple to apple, and never juniper to juniper. Spores carry on the breeze, so the two hosts do not have to be very close together. If you have apple trees within a half mile upwind of your junipers, that is where your infection came from. Since wind direction is variable, any apple tree within a half mile or so it the possible alternate host for the cedar apple rust.

I'm not familiar with just which fungicides will work. I do not believe it is feasible to treat it in junipers. I know there are treatments that work for apples.
 

hinmo24t

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The eastern white cedars, Thuja, are totally immune to the cedar-apple rust. (CAR) You do not have to worry about your Thuja.

The CAR is unique, in that it requires a different host to complete each phase of its life cycle. Spore land on a Juniper, and it will only infect species in the genus Juniperus, these spores will not infect any other conifer. Some junipers are pretty much totally immune to them. The principal host is Juniperus virginiana, Eastern Red Cedar. The CAR becomes systemic in the tissues of the Juniper, once infected the Juniper will produce spores every year. But these spores will not infect another juniper. Instead they must infect the leaves of an apple tree. Any apple, crab apple or culinary apple will do. It causes a necrotic spotting of the apple leaves. For the apple the infection stays only in the leaves. It does not spread through the tree. Toward end of summer the black spots on the apple trees shed spores, and these spores will only infect Junipers. So it goes back and forth between apples and junipers. Never apple to apple, and never juniper to juniper. Spores carry on the breeze, so the two hosts do not have to be very close together. If you have apple trees within a half mile upwind of your junipers, that is where your infection came from. Since wind direction is variable, any apple tree within a half mile or so it the possible alternate host for the cedar apple rust.

I'm not familiar with just which fungicides will work. I do not believe it is feasible to treat it in junipers. I know there are treatments that work for apples.

thanks. maybe ill work on them if the disease is limited to the red cedar and apples for the most part.

since i plan to keep them small, maybe i can stay ahead of pruning galls on them.

i am in the process of finding a Pitch Pine species (i live 45 mins to cape cod, which is all pitch pine in the sand) and we have 1 in 50 pines pitch pine in my backyard too, i just have to find one or travel a bit and talk to someone about collecting one.
they are kind of like japanese black pine from what ive read...very prehistoric look
 
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