Inverted cutting!

[bonhe]

I recall you posting about this.
It is just that something doesn't seem make sense and I'd like to understand it. I will never have anything nearing your experience with this real-world stuff.

What I think you saying is: were I to bury a willow stick horizontally (in a trench) it would make nothing but roots because it is all in the dark (buried). Such a stick would make only roots, run out of starch, and die, so I think I must be misunderstanding something.

Thank you very much Wireme for showing us those pictures.
I agree with you Osoyoung.
I can see lot of adventitious buds are swelling up at the upper surface of the horizontal willow branch to which Wireme showed us. I think the one went up in the last picture is not a root. It is a shoot emerging from the adventitious bud. Let me try to explain this phenomenon. When the branch lays horizontally, the auxin will travel down to the inferior aspect of the branch (gravity). The superior aspect of the branch will be released from the auxin's inhibition. Those adventitious buds in this areas will be out of dormant live and grow into the shoots. Later on, the root will appear in the lower part of the branch.
Bonhe

 

[bonhe]

It's been about a week, you still think I could flip it? The top portion has lost all feeder roots already.
Aaron

The olive can live above the ground 7 days even in the hot dry weather. I think you still have time to try it.
Bonhe

 

[bonhe]

Like Wireme stated, the root is needed to have adventitious buds to make vegetative growth.
Bonhe

 

[wireme]

Thank you very much Wireme for showing us those pictures.
I agree with you Osoyoung.
I can see lot of adventitious buds are swelling up at the upper surface of the horizontal willow branch to which Wireme showed us. I think the one went up in the last picture is not a root. It is a shoot emerging from the adventitious bud. Let me try to explain this phenomenon. When the branch lays horizontally, the auxin will travel down to the inferior aspect of the branch (gravity). The superior aspect of the branch will be released from the auxin's inhibition. Those adventitious buds in this areas will be out of dormant live and grow into the shoots. Later on, the root will appear in the lower part of the branch.
Bonhe

It's a root,no doubt whatsoever I've done this for many years, uncovered thousands and thousands of these cuttings. We try to get them in the ground before they start growing but it can happen fast. I've seen plenty that are hairy with roots all the way round or popping leaves and buds all depending on light exposure we have always believed.

 

[wireme]

I recall you posting about this.
It is just that something doesn't seem make sense and I'd like to understand it. I will never have anything nearing your experience with this real-world stuff.

What I think you saying is: were I to bury a willow stick horizontally (in a trench) it would make nothing but roots because it is all in the dark (buried). Such a stick would make only roots, run out of starch, and die, so I think I must be misunderstanding something.

That seems to be pretty much exactly what happens. We try to plant everything as deeply as possible for moisture but leave some exposed to light. If the soil sloughs over the cuttings too deeply they usually fail. They'll come up through an inch or two sometimes, we always figured a bit of light penetrates through the soil a short ways.

Here's a live pole drain we installed this spring. Usually with these structures the uppermost cuttings desiccate and die. Shoots come up through from deeper cuttings that are moister. The structure is somewhat open allowing some light into the bottom. If it is back filled too much we will only see some shoots emerging from the few surface cuttings that survive.
Here's another LPD on the same
site installed by a different crew the previous spring. It was installed too deeply and soil sloughed over it. There are a few shoots as seen here where the upper cuttings were still barely exposed but overall very poor survival of this structure.

 

[wireme]

I don't mean to deny the role of gravity and auxins. We also plant live stakes a lot. Typically they could be 1m long planted somewhat vertically, 80cm buried and 20cm exposed. It's been observed that survival is much better when they are planted at an angle that straight up and down. We did a trial once. Planted a bunch both ways then excavated to have a look. The vertical cuttings showed strongest root growth from the base of the cutting. The angled ones had more roots along the length and underside of the buried stem. This is thought to be due to auxin pooling. As far as the trigger that differentiates roots or shoots though... It really seems to be mainly light exposure when dealing with willow and cottonwood.

On the other hand a willow cutting sitting in water in a clear container will grow roots on the submerged portion and shoots above. Light is obviously not the only factor, they must have a few different mechanisms to help decide what to do.

We also did a trial once where some of the live stakes were planted at an angle but fully buried, about a half inch covered at the top. Very poor survival of those ones.

 

[bonhe]

It's a root,no doubt whatsoever I've done this for many years, uncovered thousands and thousands of these cuttings. We try to get them in the ground before they start growing but it can happen fast. I've seen plenty that are hairy with roots all the way round or popping leaves and buds all depending on light exposure we have always believed.

Thanks for clarification Wireme.
May be the new roots are coming up like that, but later on, they should go downwards, except if the upper part of the soil is much more favorable for the roots than the lower part.
Bonhe

 

[bonhe]

We also did a trial once where some of the live stakes were planted at an angle but fully buried, about a half inch covered at the top. Very poor survival of those ones.

It is very interesting. Do you have any explanation?
p/s: Most of my botany knowledge is self-taught, so I like to learn as much as I could.
Bonhe

 

[Smoke]

I have planted sections of elm roots upside down and it never swapped ends. The root end still grew the roots and the shoot end still pushed the shoots. It just grew is a weird "S" shape to right itself. I don't have a picture so will start a few this year to do experiment again. Maybe this time I can make something out of it with all the elm experiments I have going.

 

[0soyoung]

I have planted sections of elm roots upside down and it never swapped ends. The root end still grew the roots and the shoot end still pushed the shoots. It just grew is a weird "S" shape to right itself. I don't have a picture so will start a few this year to do experiment again. Maybe this time I can make something out of it with all the elm experiments I have going.

Cuttings, which usually are (or were close to) branch tips will 'always' behave as you describe.

However, the section of the tree about the root collar is the most likely to show this exceptional behavior of being able to grow shoots from roots or reversing the direction of polar auxin transport (PAT). I don't know of a list of species that will do this, but they likely are species that are prone to root suckering from what I have read. Clearly @bonhe 'knows' that olive will. I expect that most varieties of quince will as well (now that I think of it, I ought to try it since I have several chaenomeles plants - I don't know where my curiosity went, but it just came back ).

 

[Smoke]

Elm, Cotoneaster, pyracantha I suspect.

 

[bonhe]

I have planted sections of elm roots upside down and it never swapped ends. The root end still grew the roots and the shoot end still pushed the shoots. It just grew is a weird "S" shape to right itself. I don't have a picture so will start a few this year to do experiment again. Maybe this time I can make something out of it with all the elm experiments I have going.

That is why I asked: " How can the vegetative growth be on the rootage?"
The stem and leaf bud cuttings only need to have adventitious root
The root and leaf cuttings need to develop both adventitious buds and roots.
To have vegetative growth on the rootage, the root must have adventitious buds there. I agree with Osoyoung, the species which are able to send up a lot of root suckers (water sprouts from roots), will be an excellent species for inverted cutting. I mean the Inverted root cutting.
I don't think elm will be in this group. I have Chinese elm, Catlin elm, winged elm and cork elm. I don't see a lot of root suckers from them (once a while I had 1 - 2 suckers from cork elm). I think it is why your elm root cutting got that finding.

Cuttings, which usually are (or were close to) branch tips will 'always' behave as you describe.

However, the section of the tree about the root collar is the most likely to show this exceptional behavior of being able to grow shoots from roots or reversing the direction of polar auxin transport (PAT). I don't know of a list of species that will do this, but they likely are species that are prone to root suckering from what I have read. Clearly @bonhe 'knows' that olive will. I expect that most varieties of quince will as well (now that I think of it, I ought to try it since I have several chaenomeles plants - I don't know where my curiosity went, but it just came back ).

Hahahaaa, I agree with your thought.
The species are olive, pomegranate, flowering quince, tamarix, crabapple, willow (as Wireme said). If someone found other species, please add on.
Bonhe

 

[bonhe]

Elm, Cotoneaster, pyracantha I suspect.

Thanks Smoke. I think pyracantha, cotoneaster.
When I dug the big trident maple 2 weeks ago, I planned to do the inverted root cutting, but I did not do because I did not think it was worth to try. Am I right?
Bonhe

 

[bonhe]

These prebonsai were made from the inverted root cuttings.
Pomegranate
Its front was on 2/6/16. Lot of dead wood with one live vein at front.


Its back was on 12/26/16 with one live vein


The olive 1:

Bonhe

 

[Smoke]

Thanks Smoke. I think pyracantha, cotoneaster.
When I dug the big trident maple 2 weeks ago, I planned to do the inverted root cutting, but I did not do because I did not think it was worth to try. Am I right?
Bonhe

Definitely right.

 

[bonhe]

the olive 2.


You can see how big the olive piece is. It was cut into 2 pieces right in crown line. The root part was done with the inverted root cutting. The trunk part was done as normal cutting. You can see we did not waste any part of the tree.


Bonhe

 

[AlainK]

When I dug the big trident maple 2 weeks ago, I planned to do the inverted root cutting, but I did not do because I did not think it was worth to try. Am I right?

I tried root cuttings with Acer palmatum& Acer buergerianum), it never worked.

Among the species that are very successful: apple and pear trees, Acer campestre, elms, prunus...

You can put the cutting upside down, it works well. But it's not as spectacular as your olive cuttings

I do it to make "neagari", exposed roots like these ones:

 

[bonhe]

Thanks AlainK. Very nice!
Bonhe

 

[Cristian D.]

I tried root cuttings with Acer palmatum& Acer buergerianum), it never worked.

Among the species that are very successful: apple and pear trees, Acer campestre, elms, prunus...

You can put the cutting upside down, it works well. But it's not as spectacular as your olive cuttings

I do it to make "neagari", exposed roots like these ones:

Sorry to revive an old thread, but could you please explain how you do it?
Thank you!

 

[AlainK]

Olà,

Sorry

It's very simple:

Take a root in late February.
By the end of march, new buds will show at the cut.