Iron, Fe

sorce

Nonsense Rascal
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I am new to H&F,

You are like the Grandma who never used DE and has healthy plants!

Let me point this out.

Assuming you have grown healthy plants before being "new to H&F", which I'm assuming is Humic and Fulmic acids...

You either...

A. Are not new to H&F.
Or
B. Don't need it.

Sorce
 

Forsoothe!

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You are like the Grandma who never used DE and has healthy plants!

Let me point this out.

Assuming you have grown healthy plants before being "new to H&F", which I'm assuming is Humic and Fulmic acids...

You either...

A. Are not new to H&F.
Or
B. Don't need it.

Sorce
All of the above. I use real dirt and real composted pine bark wood chips which are mostly down to fines to which I add ground charcoal to extend the reserve capacity of the diet for critters what live there. Critter excrement is humic acid, but I never knew you could buy it in a bottle... I'm just as pleased with this new source as the farmers were a hundred years ago when they found out you could substitute little white pellets for truckloads of pig manure. Gol-l-l-l-y!🥳
 

just.wing.it

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So when I comes to application of a liquid chelated iron.....
The bottle says it can be watered into the soil or sprayed onto the foliage.
Which method is most effective?
Both?
 

Leo in N E Illinois

The Professor
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So when I comes to application of a liquid chelated iron.....
The bottle says it can be watered into the soil or sprayed onto the foliage.
Which method is most effective?
Both?
Both
Both is most effective. Which ever method floats your boat. Actually, I think it is difficult to foliar feed and not get any on the soil. Really.
 

Schmikah

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I believe @Wires_Guy_wires was referring to adding ALREADY CHELATED IRON, not Iron III. The one he couldn't remember is "iron EDDHA", that is already in chelated form iron.

There is a natural way that iron III oxide can become available. Though the action of mycorrhiza. Fungi can to amazing things. Their role in the symbiotic relationship is transport of difficult to absorb mineral nutrients. You do need healthy mycorrhiza for this to work, but such conditions do occur in bonsai pots, at least occasionally in really healthy bonsai pots.

That was what @Wires_Guy_wires was saying with the article he posted. I switched my tune after that because I had completely discounted the fungal growth breaking down ferric oxides, but my new concern was with people that use soil/fertilizer that throws the fungal life out of balance and reduces the ability for the fungus to transport nutrients into the root system when they are not already in a bio-available form.

Also @Wires_Guy_wires , thanks for the slightly smart-assed commments about spores ;). I have just seen too many nursery plants and some of my first bonsai experiments that had basically dead soil. This was completely due to my ignorance and I have been remedying it with organics and fungal transplants but for those out there that don't know anything about soil health or are heavy chemical users (unfortunately there are many in my local club) leaning on fungal and bacterial health in the soil isn't going to work.
 

Wires_Guy_wires

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That was what @Wires_Guy_wires was saying with the article he posted. I switched my tune after that because I had completely discounted the fungal growth breaking down ferric oxides, but my new concern was with people that use soil/fertilizer that throws the fungal life out of balance and reduces the ability for the fungus to transport nutrients into the root system when they are not already in a bio-available form.

Also @Wires_Guy_wires , thanks for the slightly smart-assed commments about spores ;). I have just seen too many nursery plants and some of my first bonsai experiments that had basically dead soil. This was completely due to my ignorance and I have been remedying it with organics and fungal transplants but for those out there that don't know anything about soil health or are heavy chemical users (unfortunately there are many in my local club) leaning on fungal and bacterial health in the soil isn't going to work.

Sorry for acting smart assy, thanks for not taking it as an offense. It wasn't intended as offensive and I know that it sometimes doesn't work over the internet. English might be my second language, but I still find it hard to add some comedy to my comments.
If you ever need help with soil health, feel free to ask for some. I have a few tricks up my sleeve that can beat the fungi from a jar - and I know some secrets to remove antibiotics a bit faster.
 

Schmikah

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Sorry for acting smart assy, thanks for not taking it as an offense. It wasn't intended as offensive and I know that it sometimes doesn't work over the internet. English might be my second language, but I still find it hard to add some comedy to my comments.
If you ever need help with soil health, feel free to ask for some. I have a few tricks up my sleeve that can beat the fungi from a jar - and I know some secrets to remove antibiotics a bit faster.


Not offended, I appreciated the smart-assery (not a real word).

And if you have any other, maybe slightly less dense, articles about soil health I'd be down to read. Maybe you could start a thread with jewels of academia on soil science. I'm ready to nerd out. 😁
 

Forsoothe!

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I would like to hear a discussion by our resident fugusologists/bacteriosophers on my pet peeve: the inorganic freaks that grow trees in rocks because, they say, it avoids root rot caused/encouraged by potting mixes that consist of mostly "fines". Supposedly, too little air space and/or retaining too much water/moisture is the culprit. I use equal parts top soil/pine bark soil conditioner which is very dense and retains moisture to a fault. I add all the trace elements and ~10 to 15% bonechar.

They conflate what is necessary for pines with what is good for everything and I disagree. I think the necessity for skree is limited to pines, and all others do just fine in damp soils. Although I do like to cycle wet, dry, wet, dry, it's not practical to check a hundred pots of every size and description when watering everyday. At watering time I turn on the hose and soak everything in sight and it still takes 15 minutes. I have personally killed many more trees by letting them get too dry than by letting them stay too wet.

I believe that a healthy family of mircrobes in the pot are much more important to the health of the tree than anything else, and that that population is MUCH smaller and less diverse in a pot full of rocks with token amounts of organic materials and few sources of trace elements. I view trees in rocks as in marginal health that is like a person on an IV. They're OK just as long as the attendant is attentive with feeding and watering, but that is not nearly as healthy of a situation as a tree growing in a medium that has an on-going food production chain of healthy microbes that have a full diet, not just infusions of NPK. That same infusion of NPK into my mix goes much further, so I feed once or twice a summer and the plants have a consistent supply of nutrients rather than peaks and valleys.

Trees in rocks are not as robust as trees in good soil. They are therefore more susceptible to having unhealthy root systems and without a diverse population of microbes cleansing the soil the environment can build up unhealthy levels of materials that would have been recycled by a more diverse microbe population. If growing in inorganic high-draining rocks was the solution to root rot, it would never occur in "high draining inorganic mixes". It does occur, as attested to many, many times, right here.

Just how important is a diverse microbe population in tree and/or soil health? And, can a mix with 95% rocks ever be "balanced" with adequate trace elements and a large, diverse, consistent, population of microbes?
 

sorce

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Sorce
 

Schmikah

Shohin
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I would like to hear a discussion by our resident fugusologists/bacteriosophers on my pet peeve: the inorganic freaks that grow trees in rocks because, they say, it avoids root rot caused/encouraged by potting mixes that consist of mostly "fines". Supposedly, too little air space and/or retaining too much water/moisture is the culprit. I use equal parts top soil/pine bark soil conditioner which is very dense and retains moisture to a fault. I add all the trace elements and ~10 to 15% bonechar.

They conflate what is necessary for pines with what is good for everything and I disagree. I think the necessity for skree is limited to pines, and all others do just fine in damp soils. Although I do like to cycle wet, dry, wet, dry, it's not practical to check a hundred pots of every size and description when watering everyday. At watering time I turn on the hose and soak everything in sight and it still takes 15 minutes. I have personally killed many more trees by letting them get too dry than by letting them stay too wet.

I believe that a healthy family of mircrobes in the pot are much more important to the health of the tree than anything else, and that that population is MUCH smaller and less diverse in a pot full of rocks with token amounts of organic materials and few sources of trace elements. I view trees in rocks as in marginal health that is like a person on an IV. They're OK just as long as the attendant is attentive with feeding and watering, but that is not nearly as healthy of a situation as a tree growing in a medium that has an on-going food production chain of healthy microbes that have a full diet, not just infusions of NPK. That same infusion of NPK into my mix goes much further, so I feed once or twice a summer and the plants have a consistent supply of nutrients rather than peaks and valleys.

Trees in rocks are not as robust as trees in good soil. They are therefore more susceptible to having unhealthy root systems and without a diverse population of microbes cleansing the soil the environment can build up unhealthy levels of materials that would have been recycled by a more diverse microbe population. If growing in inorganic high-draining rocks was the solution to root rot, it would never occur in "high draining inorganic mixes". It does occur, as attested to many, many times, right here.

Just how important is a diverse microbe population in tree and/or soil health? And, can a mix with 95% rocks ever be "balanced" with adequate trace elements and a large, diverse, consistent, population of microbes?

Listen to Asymmetry Podcast with Ryan Neil. He did an entire 2-ish hour episode just on soil health after they installed a compost tea-watering system at Mirai. My brain hurt but it makes a lot of sense and I agree with Ryan, it is a whole dynamic that is under explored in bonsai.
 

Wires_Guy_wires

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I would like to hear a discussion by our resident fugusologists/bacteriosophers on my pet peeve: the inorganic freaks that grow trees in rocks because, they say, it avoids root rot caused/encouraged by potting mixes that consist of mostly "fines". Supposedly, too little air space and/or retaining too much water/moisture is the culprit. I use equal parts top soil/pine bark soil conditioner which is very dense and retains moisture to a fault. I add all the trace elements and ~10 to 15% bonechar.

They conflate what is necessary for pines with what is good for everything and I disagree. I think the necessity for skree is limited to pines, and all others do just fine in damp soils. Although I do like to cycle wet, dry, wet, dry, it's not practical to check a hundred pots of every size and description when watering everyday. At watering time I turn on the hose and soak everything in sight and it still takes 15 minutes. I have personally killed many more trees by letting them get too dry than by letting them stay too wet.

I believe that a healthy family of mircrobes in the pot are much more important to the health of the tree than anything else, and that that population is MUCH smaller and less diverse in a pot full of rocks with token amounts of organic materials and few sources of trace elements. I view trees in rocks as in marginal health that is like a person on an IV. They're OK just as long as the attendant is attentive with feeding and watering, but that is not nearly as healthy of a situation as a tree growing in a medium that has an on-going food production chain of healthy microbes that have a full diet, not just infusions of NPK. That same infusion of NPK into my mix goes much further, so I feed once or twice a summer and the plants have a consistent supply of nutrients rather than peaks and valleys.

Trees in rocks are not as robust as trees in good soil. They are therefore more susceptible to having unhealthy root systems and without a diverse population of microbes cleansing the soil the environment can build up unhealthy levels of materials that would have been recycled by a more diverse microbe population. If growing in inorganic high-draining rocks was the solution to root rot, it would never occur in "high draining inorganic mixes". It does occur, as attested to many, many times, right here.

Just how important is a diverse microbe population in tree and/or soil health? And, can a mix with 95% rocks ever be "balanced" with adequate trace elements and a large, diverse, consistent, population of microbes?

A rock mix can very well be balanced, but since it's a harsher environment to stabilize and take foothold in, it can take a while for colonisation to complete and settle. In micro environments like plant pots, the environment changes rapidly and often, basically every watering cycle and every season.
In non bonsai soils, there's way more stability. This means that yes, growth output is greater, but also that if/when conditions go bad, they can take longer to adjust. For a lifetime of growing, on a tree scale, a bad year is nothing. For us humans it seems to take ages. That's where we over-adjust and screw things up.
What we want to prevent in all cases is fermentation. When fermentation happens, all oxygen breathing species have died and only anaerobic organisms thrive, the pH drops and all kind of weird bacterial excrement starts building up. Roots have a real hard time with a lack of oxygen. That's where most of the root issues start actually. The diversity drops to a couple hundred types of yeasts and bacteria en few fungi.

Rocks are better at preventing fermentation. But to get the rest of the system up and running can take a while. Nowadays I keep hearing that we westerners repot way too often. I think that the underlying idea behind that comment is that our rock soils can take a year or so to stabilize and colonize. Once there's balance, we see good growth and plan to do a repot next spring.
 
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