Is it safe yet?

[Rick Moquin]

Interesting explanation grouper, but your closing remarks just about sums it up.

<<Nursery stock are trees made for eventual use in landscaping, and pre-bonsai are trees made for eventual use in bonsai.>>

Smoke has provided us with an excellent example of what I believe folks were refering to when assigning the word "pre-bonsai", in the context that Vance is/has pointed out.

On the other hand there are folks that assign the word to any tree they deem still needs work, regardless of their state, and that IMO generates the murkiness..

 

[Vance Wood]

Well, everyone's struggling with Socratic/Platonic "Only and Every" definitions, but in this case, Aristotle would be a better way to proceed.

In his Physics, Book II starts out, "Of things that exist, some exist by nature, some from other causes". He would say, and actually sort of does say, that a Yamadori exists "by nature", not by human artifice. Yamadori has "in itself the source of its own production".

Nursery stock and pre-bonsai exist, on the other hand, "from other causes", as products of human art/artifice, human production. He goes on to state that there are four such causes that can be used to define such a man-made object, to differentiate it from other man-made objects, and these should be able to help us differentiate, therefore, nursery stock from pre-bonsai. Let's see.

First, a man-made thing must have a material cause, a substance of which it is made: in the case of nursery stock or pre-bonsai, the material would be the same - plants, trees, etc. This cause cannot therefore be used to differentiate the two.

Second, a man-made thing must have a formal cause, a "form or the arch-type" that is being aimed at during its production, its "essense", its "genera". This is what some folks here are trying to describe in terms of the size, shape, roots trunk, etc., trying to look for Socratic/Platonic "Only and Every" style definitions to differentiate the two. It is very difficult. It CAN be used to differentiate the two, but not without a lot of murkiness and exceptions, and so is not the best way to do so.

Third, a man-made thing must have an agent of production, which in this case also yields murky results, since a nurseryman could produce either a pre-bonsai or a nursery tree.

Fourth, the teleological cause, "that for the sake of which" a thing is done. Examining this, IMO, yields the best definitions for distinguishing nursery stock from pre-bonsai, and these distinctions have been touched on above: Nursery stock are trees made for eventual use in landscaping, and pre-bonsai are trees made for eventual use in bonsai.

Hope that helps.

grouper52

At what point does a cultivated tree become a prebonsai and at what point does it become nothing more than the lowly landscape tree? Who makes that determination and on what basis is the determination made? Regardless of what is done to a tree, or not done to a tree, the tree is still the product of nature and as such will impart its own nature to its final form in-spite of, or because of, outside intervention.

So it could be said that a Yamadori has achieved its form due to the forces of nature and time; time being the one factor man cannot impart. However the Yamadori is an accident of nature and a triumph of nature both and the same. Yamadori is an exercise in situation survival. As far as the traits needed for its survival as a bonsai it is sadly lacking in everything except an external form that pleases the eye of the person envisioning its transformation into a bonsai. In the cultivational aspects the Yamadori is sadly inferior to the prebonsai and yes, even the nursery tree. It is its outside appearance that makes it worth the effort. With the exception of pocket trees, most Yamadori take many years of work before they even qualify as prebonsai by many's interpretation of that concept.

So to put it into its lowest common denominator a Yamadori could be defined thusly: An old tree with a form and shape so wondrous that the time and effort it takes to make it survive in a pot becomes inconsequential in view of the final outcome. So how does that relate to the prebonsai discussion? Think about the similarities and find the differences, but there is one thing they all have in common---the final outcome as a bonsai.

 

[No it's not...]

Why/how are these definitions important to the person growing bonsai, other than from an economic point of view?

 

[grouper52]

At what point does a cultivated tree become a prebonsai and at what point does it become nothing more than the lowly landscape tree? Who makes that determination and on what basis is the determination made? Regardless of what is done to a tree, or not done to a tree, the tree is still the product of nature and as such will impart its own nature to its final form in-spite of, or because of, outside intervention.

So it could be said that a Yamadori has achieved its form due to the forces of nature and time; time being the one factor man cannot impart. However the Yamadori is an accident of nature and a triumph of nature both and the same. Yamadori is an exercise in situation survival. As far as the traits needed for its survival as a bonsai it is sadly lacking in everything except an external form that pleases the eye of the person envisioning its transformation into a bonsai. In the cultivational aspects the Yamadori is sadly inferior to the prebonsai and yes, even the nursery tree. It is its outside appearance that makes it worth the effort. With the exception of pocket trees, most Yamadori take many years of work before they even qualify as prebonsai by many's interpretation of that concept.

So to put it into its lowest common denominator a Yamadori could be defined thusly: An old tree with a form and shape so wondrous that the time and effort it takes to make it survive in a pot becomes inconsequential in view of the final outcome. So how does that relate to the prebonsai discussion? Think about the similarities and find the differences, but there is one thing they all have in common---the final outcome as a bonsai.

When you factor in time/change as it applies to such definitions, you join in one the all-time greatest and most difficult debates of heavy thinkers from both Western and Eastern traditions. From the West, Aristotle's Physics is, once again, the best stepping off place, while from the East Nagarjuna's Mulamadhyamakakarika, The Fundamental Wisdom of the Middle Way, started the debate. (Beautiful translation and commentary of this work by Jay L. Garfield, BTW). You're on your own sorting that out to your own satisfaction!

grouper52

 

[Rick Moquin]

Sorry Vance but I believe the only one that is struggling with the definition is you. A collected tree is a collected tree period or in Japanese "Yamadori".

This is a continuation of last WE's thread, although good for stimulating discussion, in this particular case I fail to see the relevance of the discussion.

Tomatoes
Toe mah toe

 

[rlist]

Sorry Vance but I believe the only one that is struggling with the definition is you. A collected tree is a collected tree period or in Japanese "Yamadori".

This is a continuation of last WE's thread, although good for stimulating discussion, in this particular case I fail to see the relevance of the discussion.

Tomatoes
Toe mah toe

I'm kinda with Rick on this one, though I am not sure what "WE's" is... Pre-bonsai is subjective term given to trees in various states of development before some higher authority deems it ready to be titled bonsai. I think everyone that has replied has given their definition of this subjective grouping, and yet you (Vance) seem to keep pushing and attempting to put a concrete definition to this group. I do not belive that this group (or others such as landscape tree - i.e. Oregon Bonsai collects lots of trees, some of which are subjectively too large to be a bonsai for some [like Walter] and are considered landscape trees, while they are perfectly suited to life in a pot as bonsai for others [like Jason]) requires or will ever obtain a concrete definition, so it leads me to the questions of "Why are you pushing this debate?" and "What do you hope to achieve?"...

 

[Rick Moquin]

I'm kinda with Rick on this one, though I am not sure what "WE's" is...

WE = Week End

 

[Anonymous User]

A collected piece is never referred to as pre-bonsai when it is collected.

Nursery stock that is raw and straight from the nursery is never referred to as pre-bonsai.

Both a collected piece and nursery stock can become pre-bonsai, but only by the hands of man over time.

So where does pre-bonsai come from? What was it before it was pre-bonsai?

Collected material, nursery material, and material grown exclusively for bonsai, from seed, cuttings, layers, nursery stock, or collected material are where pre-bonsai come from.


Will

 

[Vance Wood]

I'm kinda with Rick on this one, though I am not sure what "WE's" is... Pre-bonsai is subjective term given to trees in various states of development before some higher authority deems it ready to be titled bonsai. I think everyone that has replied has given their definition of this subjective grouping, and yet you (Vance) seem to keep pushing and attempting to put a concrete definition to this group. I do not belive that this group (or others such as landscape tree - i.e. Oregon Bonsai collects lots of trees, some of which are subjectively too large to be a bonsai for some [like Walter] and are considered landscape trees, while they are perfectly suited to life in a pot as bonsai for others [like Jason]) requires or will ever obtain a concrete definition, so it leads me to the questions of "Why are you pushing this debate?" and "What do you hope to achieve?"...

Trying to sift hype from reality. Too often we accept a concept or a term just because we have heard it, or read it, or been told by some teacher that has heard it or read it, that this is the way it is. I am just looking for people to think for themselves and decide which is which and why it is so. It is again like the saying: Sometimes the things you know get in the way of the things you are trying to learn.

If we consider sources of "Good Bonsai Material" being either Yamadori, or pre-bonsai and we pretty much agree what Yamadori is, how do we define pre-bonsai and how do we know good ones from bad ones? I don't think this is an unreasonable question, especially when we are quick to tell the neyophites that this pecking order is the best way to go. I could take a seedling, repot it pruning the roots and throw a little wire on it, stick it in a pot and I have instant pre-bonsai. According the the definitions I have been getting of pre-bonsai this would be perfectly acceptable unless I myself decide to develop it into a bonsai. Then it becomes a wast of time and energy leaving me with only one other source; The Yamadori.

 

[Rick Moquin]

Yawn!!

Smoke has provided us with a fine example.

 

[Vance Wood]

Yawn!!

Smoke has provided us with a fine example.

He has supplied us with a fine example of a pre-bonsai but we are no closer to the hows and whys.

 

[bretts]

Pre-bonsai could be classed as any tree that is ready to be worked to any degree top,bottom or both. Before this it is Stock it could be Yamadori stock, seedling stock, cutting stock and so forth.
But just because you trim some roots and stick a tree in the ground that you purchased from a nursery does not mean it has to be called a pre-bonsai from that stage.
I think it would then be the personal chioce of the grower to announce wether it is classed as stock or pre-bonsai. For many reasons such as but not limited to. The amount of stock and or pre-bonsai they have. The amount of time they spend on each class of tree.
Stock being material that is growing out to enlarge size or heal. I believe anything that has had work done to start it's road to bonsai has to be able to be called pre-bonsai. The stage that different growers make this differention can't really have a line drawn through it.
A profesional nursery might state that any stock that has been put out for sale is classed as pre bonsai. Meterial ready to be worked for bonsai It could come from vigorous Yamadori, seedlings cuttings it is all relevant to how much work/time the purchaser/owner is willing to put into that meterial at that time. They may purchase any of this meterial and then class it as stock.
Vance I don't think the statement "(If we consider sources of "Good Bonsai Material" being either Yamadori, or pre-bonsai)" Can be held as a true statement.
But we could improve the statement by saying
If we consider sources of "Good Bonsai Material" being either Yamadori, or pre-bonsai from a reputable bonsai dealer.
Yet still an artist might be after a 1 year seedling to start a miniture composition and this still could be classed as pre-bonsai.(purchased from a reputable bonsai dealer or local nursery) Yet if it was to be grown out for a large bonsai it would generally be classed as stock to be worked in the future. Yet an artist might argue that they do constant training and it should be called pre-bonsai.
Hence I doubt there can be any set standard in quality to what is pre-bonsai so the statement "Good Bonsai Material" being either Yamadori, or pre-bonsai" does not give any understanding of what quality metarial is.

As to the old argument I would say it is possibleto find good meterial at your local nursery but it will be in better supply at the local bonsai nursery.

 

[Vance Wood]

I think Brets has hit on the point that I was trying to get at. Anything that you as a grower of bonsai can identify as having potential as a bonsai is a pre-bonsai. In all honesty, what is the difference between a nursery tree and a pre-bonsai? One is a landscape tree the other cultivated for bonsai purposes. The landscape tree is shoved into a pot and maybe trimmed on the top, the pre-bonsai may have had some root work done and trimmed on top, euphemistically called styling. But---if the official pre-bonsai remains in the same container and the root work is neglected for a time does it now become landscape material because of the configuration of the roots? Or---is it so, that once a tree becomes a pre-bonsai it will always be a pre-bonsai?

There are those who make the distinction between the two by pointing out the differences in the root systems. If your pre-bonsai is allowed to become root bound does it now become landscape material, if not why, considering that it is really the root system defining the difference between the two? On the other side of the coin if an item of nursery stock is trimmed and the roots are worked on, all for bonsai purposes, does it become pre-bonsai? Or---is it necessary that an official pre-bonsai must be purchased or obtained from a third source? Is making and using your own pre-bonsai allowed by the bonsai inquisitors, especially if the original source was a nursery tree?

Part of the point I am trying to get at is one of title and hype being sold and or foisted off on the public as superior to one other source being foisted off on the public as inferior. When I was in high school sometime in the last century we had a discussion about marketing. It seems there was one liquor distributor that bottled its product in a large bottle and a small bottle.

The small bottle was priced substantially higher than the larger bottle by several times. It was the same exact liquor coming from the same vats bottled at the same time and was the same age. The smaller bottle out sold the larger one by a large percentage. It seems that the public determined for itself that because it was in such a small bottle and had such a large price it must be better, so it out sold itself in the larger bottle. It can be said that if you put a fancy name and a high price on something you can sell it for far more than if you had left the product to stand on its own merits.

Now I know that there are those out there who are going to come back with the standard "It's not about money" gambit, and they would be right to a point, but what is that point? The point is the quality of the item, is it good because it is a pre-bonsai, or is it good in-spite of being a pre-bonsai? In my fifty years of doing bonsai I have seen some really awful pre-bonsai sold at awful high prices. So remember when you venture into this market place remember what you are being told about every other question in life---follow the money. Choose quality then worry about price, being expensive does not mean it is good, if it is good it may well be expensive but the same rules apply, you shop with your eyes and your fingers.

 

[John Hill]

Yamadori, prebonsai, and yes you forgot potensai, They could all be the same just a tree until one who has the talent to make it a bonsai. I can not understand why one needs to know what a prebonsai is? It is a piece of material,, landscape, yamadori, urbandori, prebonsai , potensai, did I leave any out?. I don't know where all these terms come from, bonsai is bonsai and what you use to get there is what it is?

A Friend in bonsai
John

 

[Vance Wood]

Yamadori, prebonsai, and yes you forgot potensai, They could all be the same just a tree until one who has the talent to make it a bonsai. I can not understand why one needs to know what a prebonsai is? It is a piece of material,, landscape, yamadori, urbandori, prebonsai , potensai, did I leave any out?. I don't know where all these terms come from, bonsai is bonsai and what you use to get there is what it is?

A Friend in bonsai
John

I'm glad you asked that question: Because there are some, if they have not said it outright, have suggested that some sources for bonsai material are second rate and a waste of time. They go on and imply that the only truly legitimate sources for bonsai material are Yamadori and pre-bonsai. I have been trying to point out just how murky the lines are, that are drawn between some of these sources. If it seems that this thread has been going around in circles, aka going no where, it is because the subject is not so well defined and easily sorted out. That's OK on the surface of it, everybody is entitled to their opinion. It is however, when this opinion is used to berate the work of others that for what ever reason do not agree with their opinion that it becomes a subject for debate.

On a broader scale when we council neophytes that they should buy pre-bonsai from a bonsai store I don't think we are doing them a favor, they buy an item for subjective reasons, just because its a pre-bonsai, and are not taught that even in pre-bonsai one must be objective and understand form and shape. They must be selective and choose wisely. There is a lot of room for failure in a neophytes activities and understanding of bonsai, and there is a good deal of expense in pre-bonsai. The two may, in the end, create an expensive and discouraging failure better experienced with something not so note worth as a pre-bonsai----or as expensive.

There's that money thing again. For those of you that find money is not a problem I envy your resources, but not your motives. There are some of us that have to work hard and long for the money to live on and resources for bonsai have to be used with frugality.

 

[John Hill]

I'm glad you asked that question: Because there are some, if they have not said it outright, have suggested that some sources for bonsai material are second rate and a waste of time. They go on and imply that the only truly legitimate sources for bonsai material are Yamadori and pre-bonsai. I have been trying to point out just how murky the lines are, that are drawn between some of these sources. If it seems that this thread has been going around in circles, aka going no where, it is because the subject is not so well defined and easily sorted out. That's OK on the surface of it, everybody is entitled to their opinion. It is however, when this opinion is used to berate the work of others that for what ever reason do not agree with their opinion that it becomes a subject for debate.

On a broader scale when we council neophytes that they should buy pre-bonsai from a bonsai store I don't think we are doing them a favor, they buy an item for subjective reasons, just because its a pre-bonsai, and are not taught that even in pre-bonsai one must be objective and understand form and shape. They must be selective and choose wisely. There is a lot of room for failure in a neophytes activities and understanding of bonsai, and there is a good deal of expense in pre-bonsai. The two may, in the end, create an expensive and discouraging failure better experienced with something not so note worth as a pre-bonsai----or as expensive.

There's that money thing again. For those of you that find money is not a problem I envy your resources, but not your motives. There are some of us that have to work hard and long for the money to live on and resources for bonsai have to be used with frugality.

Amen
A Friend in bonsai
John

 

[Smoke]

I'm glad you asked that question: Because there are some, if they have not said it outright, have suggested that some sources for bonsai material are second rate and a waste of time.

Then for you this should be a challenge and a motivator to prove those people wrong. The only way to make a believer out of those that do not believe is to just do it. I'm sure someone told the Wright Brothers they could not fly too.

I do have to add this too, some sources for nursery material are second rate, as well as some sources for collected material and pre-bonsai. No one holds an exclusive market on crapsai. They abound at every corner. Let us all assume that we all understand how to choose stock and we all are on an even plane. At that point the smart money is on collected stock. Sure we all are not on an even plane nor do we all know how to choose stock, but I thought this forum was about people that wanted to discuss bonsai on a little higher plane and above the stick in pot mentality. I have no desire to go backwards in my quest for better trees. I hope that makes sense Vance.

Cheers, Al

 

[bretts]

But we are not all on an even plane. Collected stock like you show is very rare if not impossible to get here in Australia and I would guess were many other artists are. Landscaping produces some collected stock. Also this can be purchased from a bonsai nursey.
You seem to have an abundance of collectable material were you are but many don't.
Does that mean we are at the stick in a pot stage.
Some amazing junipers and even pines from nature may not be able to be reproduced by nurserymen like Brent but I would be interested to see some collected deciduous stock that could not be replicated by a growing procedure.
I thought it was excepted that collected material was all about making compromise as the material amlost always had shortfalls.

 

[Vance Wood]

But we are not all on an even plane. Collected stock like you show is very rare if not impossible to get here in Australia and I would guess were many other artists are. Landscaping produces some collected stock. Also this can be purchased from a bonsai nursey.
You seem to have an abundance of collectable material were you are but many don't.
Does that mean we are at the stick in a pot stage.
Some amazing junipers and even pines from nature may not be able to be reproduced by nurserymen like Brent but I would be interested to see some collected deciduous stock that could not be replicated by a growing procedure.
I thought it was excepted that collected material was all about making compromise as the material amlost always had shortfalls.

I agree with your sticks in pot question. But just to keep things honest and intellectually accurate, even in the Japanese tradition there are very few deciduous trees showing up in collections as collected trees. Mike Page has a few nice ones, but again that is California and some of its unique flora.

 

[bretts]

I thought that was what I said in a way.
Those twisted deadwood juniper's that come from the mountains can't be reproduced by a nurseryman.

even in the Japanese tradition there are very few deciduous trees showing up in collections as collected trees

Is this because the qaulity of cultivated trees are just as good if not better? Cause that was what I was getting at.
What sought of deciduous collected tree would be hard to replicate.