Is it subjective or is it wrong?

[nathanbs]

Dario(poink88), Tona and Bob(BonsaiBP) brought up an interesting subject during the "Is it a personal preference?" thread. Is it always just a subjective artistic opinion given or chosen when doing bonsai or is there such an instance or time when the decision made is truly right or wrong?

.......Re: help...it is indeed something we newbies should celebrate when learned bonsaists offer their help. BUT as everything in the internet, I learned NEVER to take everything from anyone...even the "EXPERTS" who have been doing it for decades and profess they know everything. I filter everything and choose which to take...act accordingly and take responsibility for it (right or wrong). Saved me and my trees a few times believe it or not. And yes...some of my poor choice led to not so good results too! ........

...... I agree with Poink, and some of my trees have been "compromised" by "experts". It does seem that when seeking advice, a filter is needed. I have asked multiple experienced bonsaists ( I made a word up) about the same tree and received conflicting input. This I believe, shows that there is room for interpretation when determining how to style any tree.

Tona touched on something very important that I forgot to mention...conflicting advise. They may all be good to their respective locale but not where I am. May fit their style and taste but not mine. Timely for their weather, frequent enough for their soil mix, ... etc., etc.

Bottom line is, there are real factors we have to consider (if we want to be any good at this) and cannot just blindly follow some advise.

Very often the conflicting advice doesn't have anything to do with one being right and another wrong- but how different people see different things in a tree. It can definitely get confusing especially for a newcomer to show a tree to one experienced person and be told "I think you should do this" then someone else says "I think you should do that" while a third says something else. I've seen people be told to style the same tree 3-4 different ways. It doesn't mean one is right just that each of us see things differently. Especially when we're talikng about styling. Even horticultural care though will bring out different opinions. Some people have no problem transplanting junipers in summer, others can't.Some say use only this fertilizer others say that and still others say something else.Or soil mixes-there are hundreds of them some work for some but not others. There are lots of variables based on all kinds of things- location, money, time, differences in priorities , personal experience, etc.. Some want and get different things from their bonsai.For some its a serious art for others a hobby. For some it can be spiritual for others just a pleasant pastime. Some may want to create world class bonsai others just want cool little trees in a pot and everything inbetween. Is one way right and the others wrong? I don't think so. The bottom line is that the tree belongs to the owner and if it gives him or her pleasure then that's what matters.

 

[Poink88]

Is it always just a subjective artistic opinion given or chosen when doing bonsai or is there such an instance or time when the decision made is truly right or wrong?

There are definitely times when a decision/action is right or wrong. But things/factors being dynamic and unique for each of us...how good or bad the effect varies. JMHO.

 

[JudyB]

I think that these people are giving their "opinions" Which by definition of an opinion, can't be "wrong".

It's up to the tree owner to listen to the opinions given, and as many opinions as they can get, and then choose the path for the tree that is right for them, and for the tree.

I've been given conflicting opinions on styling and care for my trees, and I'm grateful for all the input. I can take a bit from each of the ideas and choose the best parts and make my own way.
Unless someone is completely inexperienced, and naive, completely off the mark guidance can be avoided. In which case (for the inexperienced person) getting more opinions is never a bad thing.

 

[nathanbs]

I think that these people are giving their "opinions" Which by definition of an opinion, can't be "wrong".

It's up to the tree owner to listen to the opinions given, and as many opinions as they can get, and then choose the path for the tree that is right for them, and for the tree.

I've been given conflicting opinions on styling and care for my trees, and I'm grateful for all the input. I can take a bit from each of the ideas and choose the best parts and make my own way.
Unless someone is completely inexperienced, and naive, completely off the mark guidance can be avoided. In which case (for the inexperienced person) getting more opinions is never a bad thing.

I think saying that by definition an opinion cant be wrong is a little silly. While staring at a black rock, Sensei Hiroshimi says "In my opinion this rock is white"
Unfortunately many people interested in bonsai are fortunate to be able to find one person to help them make decisions not to mention many. I've also been told before that it can be rude or bad to ask multiple teachers about the same tree as it shows disregard for the first teachers opinion

 

[JudyB]

An opinion is a personal belief, or view of a subjective matter. You don't have an opinion about whether 2+2=4.

 

[Poink88]

An opinion is a personal belief, or view of a subjective matter. You don't have an opinion about whether 2+2=4.

I agree. If it is a known/accepted truth/fact, contradicting it is not an opinion.

 

[GrimLore]

Honest when I ask a question here I often find a lot of conflicting opinions on my thoughts. I read them all and proceed anyways perhaps using bits and pieces of all of those thoughts or opinions. If I even get 1 or 2 pct success I do not feel ANY opinion given was wrong and I will never post an "I told you so thread".
I think for the most part when it comes to Bonsai for Show is when "wrong" or "right" comes into play and once again it is the opinion of the judges(s) based on some basic methods that have been taught for many years.

 

[nathanbs]

I agree. If it is a known/accepted truth/fact, contradicting it is not an opinion.

So I guess I will add to my original question. Is there such a thing as known/accepted truths/facts in bonsai design? If so when is it no longer guised under the excuse of "it was my opinion and by definition opinions cant be wrong"?

 

[GrimLore]

So I guess I will add to my original question. Is there such a thing as known/accepted truths/facts in bonsai design? If so when is it no longer guised under the excuse of "it was my opinion and by definition opinions cant be wrong"?

WOW! I understand you, really I do! And it it why I said for "show" purposes it depends on "judges" who all have been trained differently.

My opinion on Bonsai overall is that is a personal experience and as my Wife has shown me over the years I must look at a plant and feel the plant. The rest is a natural walk down a complex path. Often judged by some but still my own.

 

[berobinson82]

In martial arts, sensei is NEVER wrong. Even when he is wrong. Parallel to bonsai. I wonder how many students cut off their favorite part of a tree to appease their instructor. Limiting their expression and forcing a clone... When it's not the student's tree, obviously do as told.

"Student, here is your opinion"

 

[Poink88]

So I guess I will add to my original question. Is there such a thing as known/accepted truths/facts in bonsai design?

I think (DANGER!!!) there are only design guidelines...

 

[berobinson82]

I think (DANGER!!!) there are only design guidelines...

Bonsai rules are like Yield signs: You can roll right through em if you know how to look both ways first. And beginners are normally safer taking it slow.

 

[GrimLore]

Definition of BONSAI:
a potted plant (as a tree) dwarfed (as by pruning) and trained to an artistic shape; also: the art of growing such a plant.

 

[Zach Smith]

These are fun conversations. I remember, in my younger days in bonsai, having more definitive "opinions" about good and bad bonsai. Over time my degree of certainty has declined (probably just general deterioration), but bonsai has become a lot more satisfying because I long ago stopped trying to force trees into shapes they really don't want to be in. Sure, most of your material is going to fit within some norm of "good" traditional design. Sure, there are principles of design and horticulture you can only violate at your trees' peril, but art is most definitely in the eye of the beholder.

As to the different and contradictory advice of "experts," yes, true experts can have widely divergent ideas of what to do with a tree. If you bring one to an expert and ask for help, be prepared to not like the result. That's the price you pay. Eventually you won't need to ask so much anymore, except for really challenging specimens.

When teaching beginners, I stick to rules pretty rigidly because it's important to have a sound place to start. The rules are rules for a reason. But I always mention that once the general practice of technique is well understood, each bonsai artist owes it to himself to find what he likes best. This takes time, and killing and maiming lots of trees.

Zach

 

[nathanbs]

Thank you to all that have commented thus far. My original question came up because I feel like there are so many moments in bonsai that are multiple choice answers and many of us have chosen the wrong answer(sometimes this is debatable other times not so much) and made the wrong decision with cutting a branch, designing a tree etc. For as many of these moments that there are there is typically the answer of "Its art, Its subjective, there's no wrong answer in art" I was just wondering if any of you felt as I do in that that's such an easy cop out. Sure sometimes this explanation works but does it always?

 

[Martin Sweeney]

NathanBS,

The way for the owner of a tree to judge a decision in bonsai is to look at the end result. Is the tree better/worse looking or healthier/deader after the decision. I hope I understood your question.

I have never been told I had to or I must do something by any US bonsai teacher as relates to a tree, even as a beginner. I have been strongly suggested and recommended many things. Some I have done, some I haven't, but it was always my choice.

I would not expect a US bonsai teacher to force a student to do something to a tree that the student does not agree to. Could I see a student, especially a new one, feeling pressured to make a decision he doesn't truly like or understand the ramifications of? Sure. Maybe I am just lucky that I have not felt that sort of pressure.

Regards,
Martin

 

[Poink88]

I am blessed to know someone locally who (is very knowledgeable) tells me what he thinks and why then leave me decide what to do. He won't even take my cutter to make a cut even after I said I agree...he wants me to do it and own it.

I believe somewhat similar practice is what Walter Pall does with his Bonsai Academy. Most are discussed, students are not told...rather guided and taught. (Not a sensei type setting)

 

[GrimLore]

Thank you to all that have commented thus far. My original question came up because I feel like there are so many moments in bonsai that are multiple choice answers and many of us have chosen the wrong answer(sometimes this is debatable other times not so much) and made the wrong decision with cutting a branch, designing a tree etc. For as many of these moments that there are there is typically the answer of "Its art, Its subjective, there's no wrong answer in art" I was just wondering if any of you felt as I do in that that's such an easy cop out. Sure sometimes this explanation works but does it always?

The key here I believe is the inclusion of the word "art". I live in a 193 year old 18 inch thick stonewall house and our Living room is wall-to-wall framed Dali prints from the Museum in NY. My Wife likes it and so be it. Many would disagree...

 

[nathanbs]

I agree, never made to do anything in the true sense of the word but like you said the pressure can certainly exist. More importantly to a complete newbie, who in most cases is a blind sheep would never think to question the "professional" of whom he is paying whether or not this cut should really be done. Although I have witnessed it with Ted Matson, where a student questioned his opinion/advice, and it seemed awfully rude. I had to agree with Ted in his advice and perhaps that is why I thought it was rude to question good advice. Perhaps if I didn't agree with the advice given I wouldn't think it was so out of line

 

[siggie]

Couple thoughts from a confused newbie.

Thank you for the thread! As I struggle to learn, I find that I have wanted a right answer. For a beginner who doesn't feel they know enough to make the right decisions, it would be a welcome thing for there to be a right and wrong way or just one right way. What I'm finding is that there's usually not and I may appreciate this more later, but it kind of sucks now because then it's up to me to evaluate and synthesize all of the varied opinions, the information, the relevant details of my environment, my own goals, etc and *gasp* FIGURE IT OUT MYSELF?! And this gives me (and others probably feel differently) a bit of decision paralysis. It can be overwhelming and scary because ultimately it makes me responsible for my trees. That's the "bad", but the good is that it forces you to think and to LEARN as opposed to consulting a list of rules and just following instructions. I imagine once I'm over the being overwhelmed part, this challenge will be a big part of what makes it more enjoyable.

As for offending teachers. Is it offensive to question at all or was it more about the way this particular student questioned Ted? I ask questions and I may question advice, but it's more to gain a better understanding. I want to learn the why.