Is the current bonsai instructional system broken?

[Woocash]

Um, well, yeah, artists should create art, but artists have to eat. You'd have to sell a dozen $5 grand trees every year to keep your head above water in some metro areas, maybe seven elsewhere. but once you've sold those trees, buyers for them are even more scarce, unless you have a "patron" who's got deep pockets. As for Mirai, it's kind of unique. Location has a lot to do with it, I'd bet so does tech market money...

I'm something of an astronomy fan. If I went to a Stephen Hawking lecture, I'd hope he wouldn't be talking the same astrophysics and string theory he talks with colleagues about the entire time. I'd expect some stuff I could understand. His explanation of what the Milky Way is would probably be fascinating, because it wouldn't be the same stuff in the textbooks, I'd bet. Same for bonsai artists.

I understand the grind bonsai artists go through. It ain't pretty. More of them are settling down with their own studios, these days...That, however, is a direct result of their travelling. They haven't just nailed their sign to a post and thrown open their doors. They've developed their own markets and clients grinding out the miles on the road and at club meetings.

Yes I guess it is true and depends on your clientele and how you want to balance your life. It just strikes me that rushing round the country to here, there and everywhere, cramming in lectures and lessons etc or having to turbo style a tree and having nobody learn anything is rather “unbonsai”. I don’t know, but I suspect this is what Owen was getting at with his original post. It’d certainly do my noodle in.

 

[sorce]

You mean daylight length and soil temperatures...well, yeah, the earth turns and tilts. We've had seasons for as long as I can remember.

No no....

It's that we should ignore our previous notions of seasons.

We must completely ignore a calendar, and begin ONLY working with the tree, with the signals it gives us.

We haven't reached this level of understanding yet. It will help us.

Sorce

 

[sorce]

You mean daylight length and soil temperatures...well, yeah, the earth turns and tilts. We've had seasons for as long as I can remember.

You old guys always try to do this "simplify and dismiss" thing with me, but it's never that simple.
Its always a new understanding.

I say this to end many arguments, not begin one.

Sorce

 

[rockm]

You old guys always try to do this "simplify and dismiss" thing with me, but it's never that simple.
Its always a new understanding.

I say this to end many arguments, not begin one.

Sorce

Well, source, sometimes, we old guys see a lot of unnecessary BS and hocus pocus that tends to complicate things. A lot of us have been working to "un-hocus pocus" bonsai for people for a while. We tend to doubt short cuts, metaphysical woo-woo explanations...

When you should work a tree IS simple. You do it when you see it is time-- I don't use tides, full moons or the length of a horse's hair to determine that time. direct observation OF THE TREE is what works. Relying on yourself and your experience (which takes time) is far better than reinterpreting the seasons, or moon phases.

And, BTW, you simply tend to fuzz things up with vague, indirect talk--which can be very hard to understand. Being obtuse may be funny sometimes, but sometimes it just obtuse and foggy. Being upset with "old guys" like me when we can't directly translate WTF YOU'RE talking about is not OUR fault.

 

[Adair M]

I know many traveling bonsai professionals, some very well! It’s a tough way to make a living!

It’s difficult to create, maintain, and improve a collection of high end trees, if you’re on the road half the time. As we all know, it takes time to “create” a high end bonsai. Even starting with good material, it takes a good 5 years or so to develop and refine it to “showable” condition. And that’s just the start! And then if you sell it, yes, you get some cash, but then, you have to replace it, and spend another 5 years on something else!

In Japan, with the apprentice system, the Master can leverage his time by training apprentices to do the grunt work so that he can work on more trees, have a bigger pipeline of work-in-progress under development. The system works because the apprentices are willing to work for virtually zero wages! I’m not sure that’s a viable system here.

Japan is also smaller, the clients are more willing to go to the Master rather than have the Master come to them.

 

[sorce]

And, BTW, you simply tend to fuzz things up with vague, indirect talk--which can be very hard to understand.

Not trying to be rude, but it is the previous assumptions made of what I'm talking about that leads to it being hard to understand.

If people approach the reading like they are trying to learn, we can build on ideas.

I'm not upset with old guys.

So before someone gets me angry saying to "think before I post"......

I thought to write....

I say this to end many arguments, not begin one.

Because this information is solely for the purpose of clearing up old stuff.
It is the context necessary to understand I am not "upset" with anyone.

There is no aggression in my post.

For some reason, the phrase "old guys" is used, and YOU pick up all the stereotypes and enter it into the word, not me.
For me, it is just the category of folks who do this.

I'll let you know when I'm "upset".

Sorce

 

[rockm]

Not trying to be rude, but it is the previous assumptions made of what I'm talking about that leads to it being hard to understand.

If people approach the reading like they are trying to learn, we can build on ideas.

I'm not upset with old guys.

So before someone gets me angry saying to "think before I post"......

I thought to write....



Because this information is solely for the purpose of clearing up old stuff.
It is the context necessary to understand I am not "upset" with anyone.

There is no aggression in my post.

For some reason, the phrase "old guys" is used, and YOU pick up all the stereotypes and enter it into the word, not me.
For me, it is just the category of folks who do this.

I'll let you know when I'm "upset".

Sorce

"For some reason, the phrase "old guys" is used...There is no aggression in my post."

This is called "passive/aggressive" YOU used the words. Take responsibility for them. There IS a little aggression going on, you're just in denial.

 

[sorce]

"For some reason, the phrase "old guys" is used...There is no aggression in my post."

This is called "passive/aggressive" YOU used the words. Take responsibility for them. There IS a little aggression going on, you're just in denial.

It's called falling victim to what society calls "stereotypes".

Point out Please sir, in the English Language, when you remove stereotypes, where is aggression?

I don't have a capability of passive aggressive.

It's a stupid fucking concept to begin with!

Sorce

 

[sorce]

You know, it is upsetting enough to look it up.

pas·sive-ag·gres·sive
adjective

1. of or denoting a type of behavior or personality characterized by indirect resistance to the demands of others and an avoidance of direct confrontation, as in procrastinating, pouting, or misplacing important materials.

Ok, so for real...

What demands has anyone made?
And what, in the first place, gave them a right to demand something of me?

There needn't be a indirect, or direct confrontation. I have stated this isn't a confrontation.

If you feel there is pouting....

Maybe it was really...
"Fuck your demands bitch." ?

But you see, I have not brought this aggression, passive or otherwise, so again, you are not allowed any demands of me, so I will not, since I have no need to, pout, or disobey demands.

They do not exist, see?

Sorce

 

[Adair M]

It's called falling victim to what society calls "stereotypes".

Point out Please sir, in the English Language, when you remove stereotypes, where is aggression?

I don't have a capability of passive aggressive.

It's a stupid fucking concept to begin with!

Sorce

Alas...

Sorce, you are passionate about all this stuff... the problem is, there is so much more to know about bonsai that you haven’t had the opportunity to experience that you’re unaware that some of the things you say have no basis of truth or fact

There’s an expression for this:

“They don’t know that they don’t know.”

I’m not saying this as an insult, please don’t take it as one. Do, however, use it as a trigger to become more open to the fact that there are facets of bonsai that you haven’t experienced, levels of refinement that appear to be unfathomable, things that appear to be impossible but are.

I had such a revelation the first time I went to Boon’s and saw trees in person of a quality that in my prior 40 years of messing with bonsai I had only seen in books and magazines. Vance Wood had a similar experience when he went to the National Show.

There is already a vast inventory of tried and tested techniques that don’t have to be invented or discovered. They just just have to be learned and applied.

As Forsoothe! would say, bonsai is “settled science”. The problem for us is the documentation is written in Japanese! (Chinese characters, actually). They’ve figured it out. We just need to learn to do what they know how to do and apply it.

 

[sorce]

things you say have no basis of truth or fact

Show me these....

And I will talk with you for hours about what I actually meant.

That's all that can happen here.

If you can't do this, to prove the points you'se are so desperately trying to make, realize you have absolutely nothing to say.

Do, however, use it as a trigger to become more open to the fact that there are facets of bonsai that you haven’t experienced, levels of refinement that appear to be unfathomable, things that appear to be impossible but are.

Lol!
You're putting this thing directly into fairy tale land again!

What if you ARE wrong?

How is this impossible?

Sorce

 

[sorce]

The problem is society still holds onto this idea that older equals wiser.

Truthfully, meaning, by all facts documented, that ended with survival of the fittest.

Clearly.

I'll learn from my children, and theirs.

Sorce

 

[Adair M]

Show me these....

And I will talk with you for hours about what I actually meant.

That's all that can happen here.

If you can't do this, to prove the points you'se are so desperately trying to make, realize you have absolutely nothing to say.




Lol!
You're putting this thing directly into fairy tale land again!

What if you ARE wrong?

How is this impossible?

Sorce

Well, just take that little piece of wire you couldn’t figure out earlier in this thread.

 

[cheap_walmart_art]

I'm on board with what Owen mentioned initially about talented locals or hobbyists taking the reins on beginner instruction in their area. If a network of teachers could be formed in a given area, students could be referred out as they advance in technique and material. I can say it's a little underwhelming to bring your first year trees to a BYOT workshop and see that other people have brought much more developed trees to the same workshop. I'd imagine that can be frustrating for the instructor as well, switching gears between 6 people of varying skill and material level.

As Owen mentioned earlier, NBS runs a mentorship 101 program. This program is overseen by an advanced long time club member who determines the materials and presentation and then the mentors (who are usually graduates of last year's program) work hands on with the class members to apply the techniques to their trees. I wonder if something like this at a larger scale might be feasible? Say that Owen sets up a studio in Nashville and offers courses on teaching basics. Graduates of his course could then spread out to their home areas and feel good about teaching beginners proper techniques. For 90% of beginners that would be enough to stick with the hobby and see progress. The ones who get that fire to learn more could be referred in to intensive courses with a higher level instructor.

I also think that access needs to be worked on in the Bonsai world. I'm seeing more and more newbie friendly pages pop up in YouTube and social media, mostly with titles like "no judgement" however I read through them and sometimes the advice is pretty awful and all over the place, I would guess because it's new people trying to teach new people. I think people tend to flock to those pages though because they ARE interested in Bonsai and they DO want better trees, but may have been on the receiving end of unhealthy elitism and flak - so they get timid of asking questions in forums with a more experienced crowd.

Like it or not, the only way a culture grows and improves is by bringing in new blood and in this case the new blood usually comes bearing an "S" shaped ficus or "indoor" juniper.

 

[sorce]

Well, just take that little piece of wire you couldn’t figure out earlier in this thread.

Oh wow....a shitty becomes a me bad!

That's rich!

Sorce

 

[sorce]

Maybe it's the quality of teachers we have in positions of teaching?

Here . .

How many fingers am I holding up?

Lol!

Sorce

 

[Warpig]

Insult or complaint I dont know but, @sorce You would make a great bureaucrat.

 

[sorce]

You know what comes next?

People saying I should care about the community more, because they might not realize I was the one who edited that picture back into woos post so we can see clear the pic in question.

Now they also realize I am not the only one who was confused.

Oh...but first....

The poor shaming...

@sorce, let’s see one of YOUR forests, if mine are so poor.

Oh, sorry, I forgot you don’t really have any.

And so predictable you are, you type poor then poor shame! Intelligent!

Then comes the intelligence shaming...

, Sorce, do ya think some degree of intelligence might be involved when deciding which trees get sacrifice branches, and from which point on the tree they should be?

I mean, come on, man! Slow down on the posting and actually THINK about what you’re saying. And before you hit that, “post reply” button, go back and read what you wrote and see if it makes sens

Followed by another weak attack at my character...

Did you wake up with a hangover???

All because.....

You just misunderstood what I said.
Sorce

You didn't get it then.
Don't get it now.
And I'm sure you won't get it again in the future.

So let's continue down this road again...

No worries folks, your friendly neighborhood free speech advocating bonsai nut "moderator" (aka the guy who approves posts that need approval as to continue the chat) will ward off these attacks for some time ......

But....

This time you're getting advanced warning....

There's a C banger coming on!

Lol!

FYI...

That was an English "cheeky cunt".
Not an American "effing cunt."

International forum rules win!
I get to use that language!

Say something that makes sense.

Sorce

 

[sorce]

If y'all had tree names it'd be paperbark.

Sorce

 

[bwaynef]

If y'all had tree names it'd be paperbark.

Sorce

No agression, passive or otherwise in THIS post. /sarcasm