Is the current bonsai instructional system broken?

[Bonsai Nut]

And the bonsai soil issue will be resolved, too!

Oh nooooo! You had to go there, didn't you?

 

[River's Edge]

I think that this is critical to keep in mind. Every single one of us has had a unique bonsai journey - with one exception: we were all beginners once. I think the answer to your question about "bonsai instructional system" depends on the objective you are trying to accomplish. Are you trying to turn people into bonsai experts in one or two days? Or are you trying to kindle a lifetime of enjoyment in an art form?

I think about this very subject with management of this web site. Am I trying to create the ultimate bonsai repository of perfect bonsai knowledge? Or am I trying to foster a community where people can come together and enjoy the art form on multiple levels; be they beginners, experienced hobbyists, or pros?

Ultimately, I feel that the art of bonsai in this country, technically, is advancing at a snail's pace... though it is still advancing. However INTEREST in the hobby is advancing much more rapidly - partly due to barriers falling where people felt intimidated discussing their "stick in a pot" they saw at Home Depot. As interest in the art advances, it creates demand for all levels of instruction - in addition to funding nurseries and making it possible for people to quit their day jobs to become full-time bonsai pros. It's kind of like we are building a pyramid. The masters are at the top. How stable will the pyramid be if the base shrinks every year? Conversely, if the base is growing, doesn't it demand more experts?

The stability of the pyramid will be greatly strengthened when the economy improves! Professional assistance and quality trees require additional financial resources to develop and acquire. Difficult to expect a huge change in wealthy clients without a stronger overall economy.
Right now one can expect a bit of a decline in discretionary expenditures

 

[Bonsai Nut]

The stability of the pyramid will be greatly strengthened when the economy improves! Professional assistance and quality trees require additional financial resources to develop and acquire. Difficult to expect a huge change in wealthy clients without a stronger overall economy.
Right now one can expect a bit of a decline in discretionary expenditures

I started to write a different response... but then deleted it because I know exactly what you are saying and I agree with it

That said, I just placed an order for 10 valley oaks (Quercus lobata) which are unknown here on the East Coast. The only nursery that would take my order said that due to overwhelming demand, they are out two-three weeks on their shipments! Stock some more valley oaks, yo!

 

[River's Edge]

Understood, did not mean to imply that those who are already in a position to invest are likely to stop. Just that the base may not expand as quickly under the current circumstances!

 

[Owen Reich]

I feel for all the bonsai professionals right now. I hope we can get back some form of normal soon, but every time I see a show cancelled, I realize there are many who won’t be compensated.

Every recession hurts discretionary spending. I fear Bonsai, for many, will be one of the first discretionary spends to stop.

I hope I’m wrong, but I am fearful for the short term future of professional bonsai.

The shows being canceled does hurt many who commit to those circuits of exhibitions. Vending at shows has changed some in my opinion, and I predict that big ticket items will be delivered to shows, and sold via video chat or custom promo videos that show that trees in different seasons and in previous shows. American made bonsai do have provenance, and it’s nice to have bonsai with more than one owner .

Bonsai professionals all over are likely writing content, catching up on all the projects, and having time to not travel constantly in some cases.
I am finally building a bonsai garden (just started). Was going to anyway, but expanding a biz during this is not ideal . Deciduous heavy from now on.

To your point @Bonsai Nut , I feel there is an expectation that bonsai pros are supposed to move mountains in a day. With planning and proper material, sure.

 

[Owen Reich]

I’m also super optimistic by the growing intermediate level bonsai hobbyist count. People are retaining the information presented to them better due in large part to catering to different learning styles. Was told on a few occasions that Bonsai Techniques 1 and 2 were written for stubborn professionals like doctors, lawyers, and engineers. I make no claims to that being the case. It does make sense though.

Mirai, Eisei-en, Phutu, etc have been providing content for some time now that is well worth watching. The gap I see in America in particular is the lack of time spent working on trees. Somebody will have a tree or three and somebody like me says “don’t fully style that yet”. They then have nothing to work on at a workshop”. No matter how much is discussed about care, pruning, etc no choppy choppy leads to sad bonsai students

Again, very optimistic about the future of bonsai in America. There will likely be a shift soon for exhibitions and vending in some regions; too many shows makes good vendors pick their best shot at profit. I’d like to see the 80’s and 90’s style conventions brought back. Explosions, intrigue, a few hundred exhibition trees, all the good vendors. Bill does it for his national shows as do a few other pockets, but there probably should not be more than 4 big shows a year imo. They could rotate cities.

If isolated from the shows and clubs geographically, collect trees. I’ll meet you at a show with $ or other bonsai stuff . Picking up half a shipping container of premixed medium and small tomorrow. Come to Nashville. We can have a conversation with megaphones.....

 

[Owen Reich]

I feel like the "Real" money in Bonsai isn't effected by this economy.
At worst you have a bunch of higher middle class trees getting bought up by those in the lowest rich category, that will still need work.

Fewer clients, more rents. Same $.

Also, this is one of the rare industries where, your inventory is getting better, not stale.

Sorce

There are a lot more 20-40 (what I’ve seen) year olds getting into bonsai. Young professionals who do bonsai to cope with intense jobs. They tend to have about 10-20 trees, most of which are high quality. Just my two cents. Bonsai pros worth their salt will be fine.

 

[AaronThomas]

I could use a bonsai tutor…

 

[Bonsai Nut]

To your point @Bonsai Nut , I feel there is an expectation that bonsai pros are supposed to move mountains in a day. With planning and proper material, sure.

My response was totally tongue in cheek, though re-reading it, I can see how it could easily be misunderstood. I am kidding because no one is going to make any money selling three year-old oak seedlings... even when you sell them in groups of ten

But back to the subject of the thread - when I typed my earlier note I was thinking along the lines of "what would be better for the art of bonsai in the US... for Owen to teach a beginner class to 20 people at a convention? Or to teach an advanced three-day course to 2 advanced students at his garden?" Without the 20 beginners, over and over, we simply will never have the practitioners around who would consider a three-day course. So we need to do it - even if we know we can't possibly cover even the most basic information in a one hour class or a one-hour "instant bonsai" demonstration. I don't think it makes bonsai instruction "broken"... but it should also be presented as nothing more than a demonstration, the tip of the iceberg, with a clear path of "next steps" or "what to do to get more information".

 

[sorce]

. I’ll meet you at a show with $ or other bonsai stuff .

Bonsai Currency!

I have been thinking about this lately, in trying to sell pots, in groups that make economical sense to ship. Since shipping a $30 pot for $30 making it $60 is reedick...but shipping 6 $30 pots for $30, makes a bit more sense.

Plus, this thing about how, to the right person, a thirty dollar pot could be worth hundreds, which could net one a fabulous tree on a trade.

Cash is King, sure.

Utilizing "Bonsai Currency" is a faster way to generate that cash. Since the right trade deals, can make better product to sell for cash.

For instance.

Person A. has that $30 pot, that completely perfects person B's Shohin display.
Person B. has a $300 peice of pre-bonsai they lost interest in, and is what person A. Has been seeking for years.

They trade even.

Now, we have a better Shohin display, and a Tree being actually cared for to become good.

A win win based on Bonsai Currency alone.

Sorce

 

[BonsaiQueen1]

Maybe someone could create and promote a national bonsai club format that would address some of the issues brought up as far as education, newcomers, etc. I happen to think Phoenix Bonsai Society does a great job with the aforementioned. Maybe @AZ Newb , being a relatively new member of PBS, could chime in. A strong, well organized club can have a major impact on the quantity and quality of bonsai in a community. IMO

 

[Forsoothe!]

I guess i should just shut up, but that's not my style. About half of the last dozen presenters that have addressed the club I belong to have been wanting, to say the least. Someone has evidently published a catch-phrase handbook for bonsai experts' use to make it seem like they know what they're talking about because they use certain key words, some Japanese terms that hobbyist don't use, some semi-scientific sounding terms that make them sound like they are privy to empirical studies that support their flat statements, and name-dropping wherever possible to infer associations closer than having seen them on YouTube.

Exactly what their professional history was before bonsai isn't fair game because bonsai is an art and science degrees or horticultural background, while helpful, is not absolutely necessary. BUT, the depth of understanding bonsai as art and bonsai as horticulture is recognizable PDQ in conversations lasting more than five minutes. Just because someone has studied with so-and-so in Japan, or the US or elsewhere doesn't make them knowledgeable, or smart, or anything.

This thread has echoed the need for more and better teachers of bonsai. The reality is we have only produced more of the above.

 

[sorce]

wanting

? I agree!

Sorce

 

[caerolle]

The gap I see in America in particular is the lack of time spent working on trees. Somebody will have a tree or three and somebody like me says “don’t fully style that yet”. They then have nothing to work on at a workshop”. No matter how much is discussed about care, pruning, etc no choppy choppy leads to sad bonsai students

This is where I am. Just getting into all this, and have laid in a few *very* young Japanese maples. They all need to grow at least a year, maybe (likely) several before even making the first trunk cut, so not much to do other than water and watch and wait and repot occasionally. I love to grow things and think even these tall, whippy trees are lovely, so that is fine, but other than reading and watching videos, there is not much for me to learn for quite a while. If I understand it all kinda correctly, you would need several trees fairly well along to have much to do to keep you busy and give you material to work on so you could learn and develop. That gets (for me at least) too expensive quite fast. I can't take workshops with no material to bring to work on, so it is hard to progress much. Learning to do this turns out to be a lot more expensive hobby if you want to be very involved.

 

[cockroach]

I have read the first page and some odd comments.

As a career educator and school administrator, this problem is only getting worse and will continue to do so.
With the advent of the internet, and bespoke classes available in shorter formats, people will pay extra to learn only what they want and how they want. This makes the traditional ways a little stuck in a rut. Few, if any, things beat hands on experience. Having said that, a large portion of students, young and old, enjoy being able to pause a video, go for dump, chat to the kids, get another cold beer and get back to their computer in their jocks.

The system being broken, for me at least, is not so much the problem as people not getting together and brainstorming. Sure, there a a handful of people getting creative and this is working well for them. But the nature of stiff competition in such a niche hobby and thusly financial pool, makes doing what has worked before paying the bills and branching out more risky than ever.

But to make changes will take time, and feedback needs to be taken from people who attended as well as those that did not want to for some reason. Those are the people who hold the key to finding new, perhaps exciting, ways of teaching an ancient art so reliant on modern science and technology.

Teachers face this issue daily in schools.

 

[Shima]

Just because you know something doesn’t mean you can teach it.

So true!

 

[Owen Reich]

This is where I am. Just getting into all this, and have laid in a few *very* young Japanese maples. They all need to grow at least a year, maybe (likely) several before even making the first trunk cut, so not much to do other than water and watch and wait and repot occasionally. I love to grow things and think even these tall, whippy trees are lovely, so that is fine, but other than reading and watching videos, there is not much for me to learn for quite a while. If I understand it all kinda correctly, you would need several trees fairly well along to have much to do to keep you busy and give you material to work on so you could learn and develop. That gets (for me at least) too expensive quite fast. I can't take workshops with no material to bring to work on, so it is hard to progress much. Learning to do this turns out to be a lot more expensive hobby if you want to be very involved.

I love beginners. Work with them fairly often when people come by to see the bonsai. To clarify, I don’t think bonsai professionals that have say national level presence or have before should teach beginner workshops. Their work creates positive ripple effects for those who are into bonsai. Young bonsai projects are best handled at the local mentor level imo. I write this having done a ton of beginner workshops all over. I do not dislike them, but feel most clubs have big expectations for a bonsai pro then we are handed sick ficus whips with 4 shoots or the like (it happens) especially when on a state coordinated tour.
It’s my sincere hope that beginners interesting in sticking with it do so. Nashville has a bonsai 101 course that actually works! Eileen Knox (former Prez in Portland) created it out there and brought it here. Those students will have a firm foundation that did not come from a sporadic visit from different people.
As far as material is concerned, I’d reccomend abandoned or closed fast food restaurant “gardens”. Also neighborhoods 50+ years old often have crappy hedges you can remove / have removed. Not the best photo, but the Taxus below was in front of a house 7 years ago .

 

[Owen Reich]

An American bonsai professional association has formed in past, and an attempt to reboot it also undertaken a few years ago. Regional organizations seem to be best. Some states like CA, TX, and FL have state organizations that work quite well. America is huge, which makes things difficult for in person events.

 

[sorce]

closed fast food restaurant “gardens

Man...I used to eat at a BK across from ..

And thought that.

Got a funeral home that been closed for a while where the grass is getting long and the DAS' are throwing regular spruce shoots.

You see this Juniper?

Dope, used to be there, I always wanted it, they always get cut! Wtf! I'm just knocking on doors from here out. F it.

lot more expensive hobby

Not at all!

Everything can be practiced on free material.

You can wire cut branches.

Dig free trees anywhere.

You can even make free pots if so inclined.

Don't believe it costs anything.

Sorce

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Nothing beats hands-on experience. Even if you are sitting directly in front of an instructor, nothing beats an instructor showing how to do something, and then handing the student a tree and saying "now show me how you do it."

One way that I am trying to really leverage online instruction is to watch a video, and then immediately go do the same work on one of my trees. In the case of Mirai, which has developed a pretty significant catalog of back content, I am actually starting to do this in reverse... find a tree on my bench that needs work, think about what I would do, and then try to find a Mirai video that covers the content. Seems like it takes me about three times of watching the same video (over the course of months or years) until I really absorb everything that is said and done.

One thing I will just add to the whole "public demonstration" issue. One format that I find particularly effective is to run several demos next to each other at the same time. That way one instructor can talk for a bit about their tree and what they are doing... and then be allowed to work in solitude for a bit while another instructor takes the mike. They use this format at the Bonsaiathon in Pasadena every year, with advanced instructors (and a relatively advanced audience) and it seems to work well.