Is there a secret to growing trident maples?

digger714

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Wow, those are beautiful trees Walter. Thanks for putting them up here. Ive always watered like you say, when its time to water. I can tell the trees love it. When its time, ill water them 2 or 3 times making sure to soak the entire tree. By the way, my hibiscus is doing great. Thanks again.
 

63pmp

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"I feed regularly as I do my other trees."

What are you feeding with, and at what concentration? To my eyes, I see magnesium deficiency, which will give yellowing, early autumn colors and makes the leaves disease prone.

Walter is correct about salt buiding up in potting mixes and the need to flush, but no one has talked about your water quality. Is your water of good quality? How do you know? Do your Japanese maples show similar symptoms? Do any other deciduous trees show symptoms?

Japanese maples will show you if you water is too saline, as they are more salt sensitive than Tridents. If your J. maples are healthy what are you doing differently to your Trident? Do you fertilize them differently? Are you treating your trident like a JBP? (JBP live naturally along seashores and can handle very salty conditions)

Salt accumulation due to high transpiration rates in summer is the main cause of windburn. Leaves use water to keep cool, in summer they need lots of water, with the rapid sucking up of water due to transpiration the plants ability to limit salt uptake is lessoned, the salts become concentrated at leaf edges and eventually cause die back. This salt concentrating effect can happen slowly over a period of weeks, with an unusual heat, or wind, event finally pushing the leaf over the edge. Fertilizer that is too concentrated will cause windburn symptoms.

Hope this helps, would like to know what you are fertilizing with, how often, and at what concentrations. I can then tell you what is deficient in your program.

Paul
 

DaveV

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Hi Paul. I use miracle grow 20:20:20 at half strength in the summer. I fert almost every other time I water (sort of a constant feeding program). I also switch with liquid organic fert. I water when the soil is slightly wet/slightly dry. It is in very well draining soil. My Japanese maples are on the same feeding pattern as well as my other trees.

Thanks Paul

DaveV.
 

cquinn

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I only use fish emulsion (Alaska Brand). April - June, September - October. Works great and my trees are super healthy.
 

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HI Dave

Miracle gro would have to be the worst fertilizer available for potted plants. I know it is widely recommended by the bonsai fraternity, but miracle gro is absolute rubbish.

The difficulty with this product is in finding out what is actually in it. If you look at the side of the pack it will list the elements NPK trace elements etc. Which is fine. But Miracle gro is a mineral fertilizer; what are the actual components? To find this out we need to look at the MSDS form. For Scotts America, you have to request this. However in Australia it is required by law to be on their website. OK that’s fine. However, I suspect the fertilizer you are using is Miracle-Gro® Nursery Select All Purpose Water Soluble Plant Food. They don’t sell that here in Australia. It is possible they use potassium phosphate to get the P levels up. However we may make the assumption that it is simply a variation on the amounts of components, as the MSDS form applies to at least four different miracle gro products, and all miracle gro MSDS forms have the same basic ingredients.

So Miracle Gro All Purpose contains the following chemicals, at undisclosed amounts,

Urea
Urea phosphate
Potassium chloride
Ammonium phosphate
Iron EDTA

Let’s look at the elemental line up.

Firstly, there is no Magnesium, or Calcium or Nitrate. Calcium and magnesium are essential macro elements. These need to be present in appreciable amounts. Magnesium and Calcium react with phosphate to produce an insoluble salt, so generally ferts high in P have no Ca and may have very low Mg, if any. Compare with Miracle Gro tomato food which has 5% Ca, but NPK of 15:2.2:9 (aus numbers)

In bonsai growing there are only three sources for your plant to gain these elements; your initial potting mix, your irrigation water, and your fertilizer. The amount contained in potting mixes is finite, lasting a couple of months at best. If the plants are not getting them from your irrigation water, which may have a degree of hardness associated with it, they’re not going to get it from miracle gro. A “hard” water can provide all the calcium a plant needs, but it needs to be proportional to the amount of magnesium present in the water, to little magnesium and the calcium will push the plant towards magnesium deficiency.

The bad in miracle gro.

Urea is a very poor source of nitrogen for plants, but is cheap to make. Plants prefer nitrate first, ammonium second and urea as a last resort. Why is this? Plants use nitrates preferentially because it takes minimal energy to convert it into usable forms. Plant cells are slightly alkali, so when they absorb ammonium, it quickly converts to ammonia, which is toxic to plants, so plant cells have to use carbohydrate to convert ammonia to nitrate, and fast. Urea is difficult to breakdown, using a lot of energy, and requires the presence of Nickel for the enzymes to work. Who adds nickel to their fertilizer program? How long has your tree been in a pot? Is it nickel deficient? Probably! That’s one problem. Another problem is that plant roots don’t work at low soil temperatures, so ammonium ferts can be toxic to roots because it quickly depletes the cells of important nutrients to neutralize them. Urea is worse as it uses a lot more. Miracle gro only has Urea and ammonium, not good.

In the ground urea is broken down by bacteria in the soil to produce ammonium and then onto nitrate. Which is great for plants in the ground. In pots these bacteria will take two days at optimum conditions to convert urea to nitrate. However, during low oxygen conditions the process stops and can reverse, at adverse pH’s the process stops. The bacteria also have to be present in large enough numbers to be effective, they are easily killed by high soil temps. Fortunately urea is highly soluble, doesn’t attach to CEC sites and leaches quickly. Urea and ammonium both lower the pH of soils so that manganese present in the potting mix may become toxic, so these are not the best chemicals to add because they cannot be controlled.

The other bad thing in miracle gro is it contains potassium chloride, KCL. Scotts give no information on how much chloride is in their products. Chloride is toxic to plants at high enough concentrations. Chloride toxicity causes marginal leaf burn, among other things. Since KCl is the major source of potassium in miracle gro, the chloride levels may be very high (it’s possible they are using potassium phosphate to lift the K levels to get a 20:20:20 fert but would still need KCL to get to 20). Normally chloride is held at bay by nitrate and sulfate ions, but nitrate is missing and so chloride can be taken up by roots to balance electrical charges in cells. Chloride should never, under any circumstances be added to a bonsai fertilizer.

What I think happens with this fert is that most of the urea is leached out in the next watering, some will be taken up by the plant, some by bacteria. The chloride is excessive and can cause toxicity, there is no magnesium or calcium and so the plant can become deficient in these elements if not supplied by another source, such as irrigation water.

Having a tree in full sun exacerbates these problems as the tree struggles with transpiration demands. A tree in the shade will show much less symptoms or none at all.

I would recommend moving the tree to the shade, change fertilizers or simply stick with the organic fert (check for MG and Ca) If the org fert is from Scotts ditch it because they dose it with urea), supplement trees with Epsom salts or better, with magnesium nitrate (if you can find it). At a rate of 1 level teaspoon per 27 liters of water. Water with this weekly, in addition to you new fertilizer which should be used at half recommended strength. Perhaps consider finding out what your irrigation water is like, local councils usually can provide this.

Hope you find this informative. It would be handy to have the American MSDS of the product you are using because there are some big assumptions with my assessment. Though I believe the major components are the same.

Paul
 
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Smoke

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So far the only two people posting any pictures of their trees in fall is me and Walter. Talk is cheap...lets see some maple trees to back up all these claims folks!
 

Brian Underwood

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In due time, sir. My maples have not started to turn yet, so I am waiting for that special Kodak moment...
 

Smoke

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In due time, sir. My maples have not started to turn yet, so I am waiting for that special Kodak moment...

Brian you get a pass...you had not contributed as far as what keeps a maple looking good in fall. When mine start to turn even the brown leaves look good. Better to post them in the green phase and tell us your secrets.

Mine should look stunning this years since they are really good right now and the weather has turned mild.

I think we should start a fall color thread, that would be good.
 

Brian Underwood

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If secrets are what you want, then secrets you shall recieve...

I use Apex 16-5-9 extended release fertilizer, twice what is recommended per gallon of soil. All maples are potted in pure Akadama, or a pumice/lava/Akadama mix, and watered thoroughly every morning. I also use a 4-2-3 mild fish emulsion fertilizer every two weeks to give them an occasional boost. My Tridents are in almost full sun, with minimal leafburn if any, and my one Japanese maple is in mostly shade. I learned with the palmatum they burn very easy if exposed to full afternoon sun. Pictures soon to follow...

Links; http://www.simplot.com/turf/apex/products/npk_plus_new.cfm http://www.mybonsaibuddy.com/Bonsai_Green_Bonsai_Fertilizer.html
 

63pmp

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Atilla Soos said

"But here is what puzzles me: the tridents planted into the ground, look fresh green, even if they grow in full sun all day long. So, there is something in the physiology of the tree that makes it resistent to full sun, if grown in the ground. And the tree becomes defenseless against it when growing in the pot (thus the need for the extra-extra protection)."

Growing in the ground is very different to being in a pot. In the ground plants get all the nutrients they need from the soil (unless the soil is depleted in some element or another) there is bacterial/fungal symbiosis going on all the time which assist in plant feeding. In a pot they are reliant on us to give them all they need. It is now known that bacteria do a lot of the nutrient gathering for roots in exchange for carbohydrates from the plant. Soil temps also remain fairly constant, and so roots function better than in a pot. Also waterlogging/anoxic conditions are less frequent, so roots are less stressed. Roots are free to explore the soil as far as they want, while in pots they are confined. All this means a happier and healthier tree in the ground, less stress means less leaf damage. If you provide the right nutrients to the plant it will grow well, until root clogging impinges on oxygen levels, slowing plant growth, as well as causing nutrient imbalances.

It is nutrient imbalances that causes leaf problems. Too little, or too much, of any one of sixteen odd elements will cause structural weaknesses in the leaf which leads to damage during periods of stress. For example a shortage of potassium causes a thinning of the waxy cuticle of leaves, making them susceptible to dessication. Calcium is essential for cell walls and proper leaf and stem formation at the apical meristem, a shortage of calcium causes weak leaves that burn at the edges and stems that split. Too much calcium causes magnesium deficiency, which causes chlorotic leaves, which are prone to disease, marginal burning and early senescence. etc and so on, for all the other essential elements

Paul
 
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I would propose a simpler, but not exclusive, explanation. In hot and dry climates, water is scarce all the day long for a few weeks or even months. You can know it by looking at the ususally very reduced (compared to plant in pots) summer growth.
This long term and continous stress is managed by acclimatization. One classical example is Berberis vulgaris.

On the contrary, in a pot, plants are subject to intermittent water stress, so they don't acclimate.
 

Roberts

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Mine should look stunning this years since they are really good right now and the weather has turned mild.

I think we should start a fall color thread, that would be good.



Please do, I would love to learn how to prepare tree's for spectacular colors.

Robert
 
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