Is this a Deshojo?

[Juanmi]

Nope. Deshojo is a named variety of acer palmatum.

Atropurpuream is a different variaty alltogether.
Deshojo can be grafted on regular rootstock, as taking cuttings is slower and less certain than propagation via grafting.

A deshojo is only a deshojo if reproduced through a-sexual means, in other words, cuttings, layers.

Thanks a lot! So Deshojos aren't found in the nature, they are made by humans? (Like most of the feuits and vegetables that we eat that are modified by some kind of selection breeding?)

 

[leatherback]

So Deshojos aren't found in the nature, they are made by humans?

Deshojo is a selected mutant most likely. And from this one interestingly brightly red maple, all the desohojos on the world are (should be) clones.
Unfortunately. scrupulous traders do propagate by seed and sell them as deshojo, leading to a dwindling color over time.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Thanks a lot! So Deshojos aren't found in the nature, they are made by humans? (Like most of the feuits and vegetables that we eat that are modified by some kind of selection breeding?)

Yes, as @leatherback has said, in many cases they aren't so much "made" as they are "identified".

Let's say you are a Japanese maple nursery, and that you specialize in 20 different cultivars of trees. You have a huge field of trees that you are growing for the landscape trade - and they are mature trees in 36" boxes. Every year they flower and seed everywhere - truly thousands and thousands of seedlings. Mostly you ignore them and treat them like weeds, but one year you notice a seedling that looks completely different.

You think "wow that is super rare. The color reminds me of a golden phoenix. Except even brighter than a golden phoenix! It's like a golden phoenix x10!"

So you dig it up, propagate it, register the name, and start to sell it. Voila! The A. palmatum "Super Rare Golden Phoenix x10" is born! I am rounding some corners here, because there is a process whereby plants need to get approved as registered cultivars, and I'm not certain what it is - I just know it exists. But for the purpose of this thread - the only plants that can use the name HAVE to be clones of this single seedling.

Of course, you don't NEED to register the name in order to sell interesting plants with unique features. For years, Frank Yee has been selling clones of a cork bark portulacaria that he believes experienced a genetic mutation due to being sprayed with some restricted chemicals. As long as you get it from Frank, you know what it is. And in southern California there are tons of people who refer to that plant as a "Frank Yee cork bark portulacaria"... even though you will never find it in a nursery.

 

[Owen Reich]

Just to be clear, I fully agree with everything you have been saying, but for the sake of adding to the nerdy-twist this thread is taking, here is something to consider:

You are right that propagation via cuttings (or grafts) preserves the DNA sequence and therefore there are no changes in genotype.

However, we know that epigenetic factors can alter gene expression and can lead to changes in phenotype without any change in genotype, meaning Deshojo cuttings may LOOK different despite being genetically identical.

So this actually supports the position that you (and I) have taken here: it’s wreckless to try to identify a ‘cultivar’ (i.e. its genotype) on the basis of appearance.

Whether phenotypic changes are heritable is a much more complicated question when it comes to Acer palmatum (in general, they can be inherited, but i have not seen this proven with Japanese Maples). Can changes in phenotype (without change in genotype/DNA) be inherited and preserved via cutting/grafting? Or is there a return to the ‘common’ genetic expression and phenotype if/when the epigenetic factors alter or disappear?

There is potentially an argument to be made that the artificial selection process can be applied at the level of phenotype via cutting propagation.

I know with certainty that the Deshojo that i imported from Japan recently have smaller leaves and shorter internodes than the Deshojo in my yard that was imported 25 years ago, and the Deshojo that i purchased at the landscape store.

This spring I will be taking cuttings of each of these ‘groups’, and will be treating them exactly the same. After a few years of identical treatment, will they look the same? At this point i don’t know.

But i’m no expert in this stuff, just a casual reader who is speculating from first principles

@Owen Reich any thoughts?

I’ll re-educate myself on this and get back to you.

If you really want your mind blown, where you take the cutting can affect growth habit in many species. For example, a side branch outside cone of juvenility will be more prostrate, or not form a central leader easily. Same plant, different location. Different expression of a tree’s character when cutting propagated. Exact same genetics.

 

[Owen Reich]

Yes, as @leatherback has said, in many cases they aren't so much "made" as they are "identified".

Let's say you are a Japanese maple nursery, and that you specialize in 20 different cultivars of trees. You have a huge field of trees that you are growing for the landscape trade - and they are mature trees in 36" boxes. Every year they flower and seed everywhere - truly thousands and thousands of seedlings. Mostly you ignore them and treat them like weeds, but one year you notice a seedling that looks completely different.

You think "wow that is super rare. The color reminds me of a golden phoenix. Except even brighter than a golden phoenix! It's like a golden phoenix x10!"

So you dig it up, propagate it, register the name, and start to sell it. Voila! The A. palmatum "Super Rare Golden Phoenix x10" is born! I am rounding some corners here, because there is a process whereby plants need to get approved as registered cultivars, and I'm not certain what it is - I just know it exists. But for the purpose of this thread - the only plants that can use the name HAVE to be clones of this single seedling.

Of course, you don't NEED to register the name in order to sell interesting plants with unique features. For years, Frank Yee has been selling clones of a cork bark portulacaria that he believes experienced a genetic mutation due to being sprayed with some restricted chemicals. As long as you get it from Frank, you know what it is. And in southern California there are tons of people who refer to that plant as a "Frank Yee cork bark portulacaria"... even though you will never find it in a nursery.

I think this cultivar name needs to be used. I always thought Super Saiyan Goku or Vegita would be fun. Yellow with white edges or something.

 

[HorseloverFat]

I’ll re-educate myself on this and get back to you.

If you really want your mind blown, where you take the cutting can affect growth habit in many species. For example, a side branch outside cone of juvenility will be more prostrate, or not form a central leader easily. Same plant, different location. Different expression of a tree’s character when cutting propagated. Exact same genetics.

My Mind just “poo”ed my brain’s trousers!

Amazing!!

I am getting EXTREMELY fascinated by genetic variants/mutations as I build my stock.

Thank you for this!

 

[HorseloverFat]

Thanks a lot! So Deshojos aren't found in the nature, they are made by humans? (Like most of the feuits and vegetables that we eat that are modified by some kind of selection breeding?)

As, I’m assuming has been said.. (I just replied, right away) Cultivars are MOST often mutants... if you want to “nit-pick”.. each seed-started plant contains it’s OWN unique traits/“DNA”.. most variants are small.. EVER so slightly more pointy leaves.. .06 percent longer internodes.. others are even LESS distinguishable (Slight color deviations being COMMON amongst these UNCOMMON variants, at best)... Some genetic variations are UNdesirable, as well.. so throw THAT variable percentage in there as well.
Variations I have already described would almost never warrant a cultivar “label/name”...

Example: Germinate 1000 seeds... find the reddest, Best-defined leaves in the bunch...take that tree

Germinate 1000 seeds in different conditions... find the reddest, best-defined leaves in the bunch..take that tree...

(You could have gone for different attributes the second time)

Cross-pollinate (NOT NECESSARY.. could’ve stopped after the first 1000.. but what fun is that?).. then plant 1000 of THOSE seeds..

THEEEN pick out the tree from that batch containing desired characteristics... THAT gets “a name” liiike “Fregozho”.. or whatever.... Every “Fregozho” after THAT.. is a “clone”... by stem-cutting, grafting.. ect...
only ONE “Deshojo” actually “happened”.

..1000 is obviously a hefty amount, and is based (The numbers) upon Chile Selection That I have taken part in.

Just trying to help ya understand.

 

[leatherback]

if you want to “nit-pick”

This is not nitpicking. In fact, the most commone way of creating a new cultivar is doing exactly what you describe. As an example, I have a number of seedlings with laceleaf. The seed came from an arakawa A palmatum. Guess what I will do if I do have these traits combined? I could of course look up whether the laceleaf and the arakawa traista re on the same chromosome, and therefor, mutually exclusive without actual mutations. But where is the fun in that.

Starting with 1000 seedlings is not strange at all. A new variety will not come up just like that.

 

[leatherback]

I think this cultivar name needs to be used.

A. palmatum "Super Rare Golden Phoenix x10"

Well.. As said..

 

[Owen Reich]

Just to be clear, I fully agree with everything you have been saying, but for the sake of adding to the nerdy-twist this thread is taking, here is something to consider:

You are right that propagation via cuttings (or grafts) preserves the DNA sequence and therefore there are no changes in genotype.

However, we know that epigenetic factors can alter gene expression and can lead to changes in phenotype without any change in genotype, meaning Deshojo cuttings may LOOK different despite being genetically identical.

So this actually supports the position that you (and I) have taken here: it’s wreckless to try to identify a ‘cultivar’ (i.e. its genotype) on the basis of appearance.

Whether phenotypic changes are heritable is a much more complicated question when it comes to Acer palmatum (in general, they can be inherited, but i have not seen this proven with Japanese Maples). Can changes in phenotype (without change in genotype/DNA) be inherited and preserved via cutting/grafting? Or is there a return to the ‘common’ genetic expression and phenotype if/when the epigenetic factors alter or disappear?

There is potentially an argument to be made that the artificial selection process can be applied at the level of phenotype via cutting propagation.

I know with certainty that the Deshojo that i imported from Japan recently have smaller leaves and shorter internodes than the Deshojo in my yard that was imported 25 years ago, and the Deshojo that i purchased at the landscape store.

This spring I will be taking cuttings of each of these ‘groups’, and will be treating them exactly the same. After a few years of identical treatment, will they look the same? At this point i don’t know.

But i’m no expert in this stuff, just a casual reader who is speculating from first principles

@Owen Reich any thoughts?

Ok, ready to answer the expression question I think, but honestly I defer to Mr. Kirby on the science as he’s active in field. I’ll say this:

Some species that are prone to reversion if not a fully stable cultivar. Seems to me like many elms, boxwood, junipers, etc can shift freely back and forth between foliage forms, and as an opinion cutting prop of above families seems to yield plant capable of stabilizing from a rooted cutting of a reversion. Say Frosty elm. Cultivar genetics will re-express when not under stress.

Other families and species, especially conifers, seem to express same as scion or rooted cutting from then on. Shimpaku for example is easy to note the difference in vigor based on cutting location. So, rooting a cutting of a weaker vigor internal side branch would produce rooted cuttings with same behavior. Gets a little hazy (I have no idea) with super feeding and amping a plant up, grafting small shoots, somatic embryogenesis (I got to work in a lab for Tillandsia eizeii. Repopulation study cloning and turning tissue into bromeliads).

So, I’d say phenotypic expression may be go

As an aside I have a variegated trident maple that expresses uniformly when defoliated but not when it leafs out on its own. Stress, response is phenotypic expression of different leaf type.

Plant do amazing things.

Just acquired two chaenomeles that change petal color after pollination (both have Toyo Nishiki as a parent). Also a new roughbark trident variety called ‘Randy’s Roughbark’ in honor of Randy Davis, the guy who found and grew it on as bonsai in Kentucky.

 

[Canada Bonsai]

As an aside I have a variegated trident maple that expresses uniformly when defoliated but not when it leafs out on its own. Stress, response is phenotypic expression of different leaf type.

Thanks for all of this!

I wonder what would happen it you took cuttings from the variegated foliage, and then from the non-variegated foliage. Would the cutting of non-variegate foliage remain permanently non-variegated?

From I understand, inheritability varies from plant to plant and trait to trait, so this kind of a study could not make any predictions about leaf size or color, but it sure would be fun entirely for curiosity's sake!

Also a new roughbark trident variety called ‘Randy’s Roughbark’ in honor of Randy Davis, the guy who found and grew it on as bonsai in Kentucky.

Nice!! I found this thread on it: http://bonsaistudygroup.com/deciduous-bonsai-discussion/new-rough-bark-trident-maple/

Do you have any pictures of the bark?

I just got my hands on Julian Adams' rough bark trident this winter. This year will be my first time taking cuttings from it. The bark is not beautiful like Bill Valavanis's rough bark trident though, but it's all i've got for now! They seem to be rare, even in Japan--i have not been able to find somebody propagating them in Japan, where seed seems to the most common method!

 

[EliJamesBonsai]

So is the atropurpureum a solid cultivar?…the one I have looks fairly nice…as yearling trees can look at least…I’ve worked with several acre palmatums and have some nice ones but I’ve honestly never heard of this cultivar until I bought this one recently