Is this needle cast and should I wait till Spring to prune?

[Japonicus]

1st 2 are mugo, the 3rd is JBP Banshosho
other pines also involved not pictured

In anticipation of overwatering during a late Summer vacation I used a 2nd round of
Infuse granular fungicide just prior to leaving town, and a friend to water the trees and care for our pets.
It was a follow up to a Springs preventative application, yet this has come on most all my pines
JWP to lesser degree, but evident.
Everything was pretty saturated when we got home, but I'm sure the spores were already in place.

I'm applying a 3rd round of granules, and will probably use Phyton27 foliar spray this week.
It's been a full rain schedule this Summer staying well ahead of average rainfall until October.
Now we're just ahead of annual avg.

So my question is, if the new terminal buds are alive, and they appear to be
and given we are past the growing season, and most foliar spray doesn't help,
is there anything else I should do now, or wait till Spring and repeat spray and granular applications.

 

[Paradox]

Doesn't look like needle cast from what I have seen of it. If it is its a REALLY bad case

Could this be from the heat we had this summer?

If you really think it's a fungus, I would carefully cut all the effected needles off and either burn them or dispose in the trash. You don't want them spreading the fungus around. The brown needles aren't doing or going to do the trees any good now or ever. The needles are dead.

 

[Japonicus]

Doesn't look like needle cast from what I have seen of it. If it is its a REALLY bad case

Could this be from the heat we had this summer?

If you really think it's a fungus, I would carefully cut all the effected needles off and either burn them or dispose in the trash. You don't want them spreading the fungus around. The brown needles aren't doing or going to do the trees any good now or ever. The needles are dead.

You know, I wasn't that impressed with this Summers heat.
Sorry I don't have any up close photos of the needles on here oops.
My pines have faired much better in hotter Summers, but this has been a wetter than average year
with August and September checking into record books for precipitation.

So if I remove and discard needles, what about pruning? Opening a wound for the spores to enter
and no time to heal before Winter. Water usage was about zero this past week due to Winter temps.

 

[Japonicus]

Also have to add, the needles are still on the tree as life has been crazy relentless as of late.
Will be retired next Spring and hope to be able to keep up.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Happen to have a cat that might have sprayed trees? One of mine did looking much like this.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Do you see any resin leaks or webbing near the needles?
Could be a bad case of pine needle miners.

A close up would really help. A piece of paper behind a shoot can help the camera find a good focus.

 

[Paradox]

You know, I wasn't that impressed with this Summers heat.
Sorry I don't have any up close photos of the needles on here oops.
My pines have faired much better in hotter Summers, but this has been a wetter than average year
with August and September checking into record books for precipitation.

So if I remove and discard needles, what about pruning? Opening a wound for the spores to enter
and no time to heal before Winter. Water usage was about zero this past week due to Winter temps.

If it is a fungus, leaving infected needles around will spread the spores around better than cutting them off and disposing of them.

I am not convinced this is a fungus though.

I do know those needles are dead and will never be useful to the tree again

 

[Japonicus]

Do you see any resin leaks or webbing near the needles?
Could be a bad case of pine needle miners.

A close up would really help. A piece of paper behind a shoot can help the camera find a good focus.

This last picture of this same Mugo Pumilio, has needle tips that look like incense sticks with the ash knocked off.
I went back with a loup and could not reproduce the optical illusion above that maple seed, that looks smoky or web like.
I didn't use flash.

Happen to have a cat that might have sprayed trees? One of mine did looking much like this.

It's just about all my pines. Started out by losing one of 2 JWP seedlings.
The other seedling lost it's top.

 

[Potawatomi13]

View attachment 463653View attachment 463654View attachment 463655View attachment 463657
This last picture of this same Mugo Pumilio, has needle tips that look like incense sticks with the ash knocked off.
I went back with a loup and could not reproduce the optical illusion above that maple seed, that looks smoky or web like.
I didn't use flash.


It's just about all my pines. Started out by losing one of 2 JWP seedlings.
The other seedling lost it's top.

From experience cats aim rearward not too accurate so might not get whole tree. No rhyme/reason for such behavior but hormones. Needle ends another question.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I remember a deep dive with @Shogun610 where I thought one or a couple of his trees were suffering from a diplodia. Probably diplodia pinea but I'm not at all familiar with the disease. I'm not sure if the treatment he did ever worked, or how things have turned out eventually.
Diplodia is rare here in Europe and we hardly ever encounter it. It's rare in the US too and I don't know about the distribution range. I only know that it is present in the states.

If these plants haven't been sprayed with anything high in ammonia or salts and they've been on a regimen of antibiotics, you might get to know more if you check to see if your current antifungals are known to treat for diplodia. If they don't, that'd be my guess.
But I still think it's strange that so many trees are affected all at the same time. I would expect a couple to have heavy issues while others have mild or no symptoms, due to natural variance. The banding pattern however, with no visible dots in the center of the band, do make me suspect it's fungal, but not needlecast. Because needle cast sporulates from the center of the band, and the bands tend to go yellow before they go brown.

I've had larvae in my candles and in my needles, and they looked somewhat the same but the key difference is that the buds oozed resin for the entire time or they collapsed all together. Yours look firm and since there are no obvious signs of things eating them from the inside out, I think it's safe to assume that it's not bug related.

Mysterious case though. I'd love to be kept in the loop!

 

[Shogun610]

I remember a deep dive with @Shogun610 where I thought one or a couple of his trees were suffering from a diplodia. Probably diplodia pinea but I'm not at all familiar with the disease. I'm not sure if the treatment he did ever worked, or how things have turned out eventually.
Diplodia is rare here in Europe and we hardly ever encounter it. It's rare in the US too and I don't know about the distribution range. I only know that it is present in the states.

If these plants haven't been sprayed with anything high in ammonia or salts and they've been on a regimen of antibiotics, you might get to know more if you check to see if your current antifungals are known to treat for diplodia. If they don't, that'd be my guess.
But I still think it's strange that so many trees are affected all at the same time. I would expect a couple to have heavy issues while others have mild or no symptoms, due to natural variance. The banding pattern however, with no visible dots in the center of the band, do make me suspect it's fungal, but not needlecast. Because needle cast sporulates from the center of the band, and the bands tend to go yellow before they go brown.

I've had larvae in my candles and in my needles, and they looked somewhat the same but the key difference is that the buds oozed resin for the entire time or they collapsed all together. Yours look firm and since there are no obvious signs of things eating them from the inside out, I think it's safe to assume that it's not bug related.

Mysterious case though. I'd love to be kept in the loop!

The red pine that had that did eventually die …. Now, like leg day I’m never skipping a copper spray beginning, middle and end of dormancy. Does look similar to what I had , I also chopped it up to poor drainage in the pot I had my pine in. It was a yamafusa and the middle of the pot has. Poor drainage holes, far better suited for a deciduous tree vs a pine, but that was secondary to the disease

 

[Lorax7]

Considering that the diagnosis is quite uncertain and the progression of whatever it’s got is advanced, the best thing I can recommend is to take it to your local agricultural extension office or the nearest university that has a plant sciences department to have a professional look at it so it can be treated with the appropriate remedy ASAP before it gets any worse. It’ll cost you some money (probably around 20 bucks or thereabouts), but you’ll get a definitive answer both regarding what it has and what you can do about it.

 

[Japonicus]

The last several times (maybe a dozen times) I've tried to upload pics here parsing fails.
My upload speed is very slow recently.
My pinus Nigra and my oldest mugo bonsai, nearly died from needle cast a few years back.
There was a black suet covering the needle sheaths, and I lost my 1st JBP to it as well.
My juniper appear ok, but not so sure about hemlocks and another conifer.

I've done no Summer spraying, as I thought we just sprayed when candles were emerging, then again when opening up.
Spring I did the usual 2 sprays with Daconil, and the Infuse granules.

The banding pattern however, with no visible dots in the center of the band, do make me suspect it's fungal, but not needlecast. Because needle cast sporulates from the center of the band, and the bands tend to go yellow before they go brown.

Back to unable to upload pics, I do see some brown specks about a few of the needles bands
and they do tend to be yellow, then brown. I have a Scots pine that's also advanced with this.
A Brocade, cork bark JBP has it, as do my WP's, but looking healthy.
This has nothing to do with the angle of which a cat sprays @Potawatomi13 , but thanks for the input.

 

[Japonicus]

Considering that the diagnosis is quite uncertain and the progression of whatever it’s got is advanced, the best thing I can recommend is to take it to your local agricultural extension office or the nearest university that has a plant sciences department to have a professional look at it so it can be treated with the appropriate remedy ASAP before it gets any worse. It’ll cost you some money (probably around 20 bucks or thereabouts), but you’ll get a definitive answer both regarding what it has and what you can do about it.

I will try to get to an agricultural extension agent. Had one a mile from our home, but has been relocated
when they tore the building down. I haven't had much luck trying to get help from them in the past though.
There is a university in town, maybe after Thanksgiving I can get ahold of someone.
In the meantime more granules, and will apply Phyton27. I haven't used that for a year or so.
It's a great systemic copper application, I've heard argument that it is not systemic, but Phyton corp. says it is...

 

[Potawatomi13]

Be aware copper, daconyl in substrate kills michorrizae. Suspicion exists of much excess poisons on tree doing more harm than good. If tree dies this will likely be the cause.

 

[Japonicus]

Pinus nigra

Clump mugo


EWP

Mugo




Scots

Golden hemlock
Got my phone to upload pics.

 

[Lorax7]

I will try to get to an agricultural extension agent. Had one a mile from our home, but has been relocated
when they tore the building down. I haven't had much luck trying to get help from them in the past though.
There is a university in town, maybe after Thanksgiving I can get ahold of someone.
In the meantime more granules, and will apply Phyton27. I haven't used that for a year or so.
It's a great systemic copper application, I've heard argument that it is not systemic, but Phyton corp. says it is...

I don’t think blindly applying more chemicals is a good idea. You don’t really know what it has. It might be fungal. It might not be fungal. You don’t know with any degree of certainty. At a minimum, treating it now confounds the diagnosis and makes the job of the plant scientist harder. All treatments have side effects.

 

[Japonicus]

Phyton27 is a broad spectrum copper treatment.
I have more faith in treating ASAP than I have in our extension agents based on past dealings.
I am unaware of any botany or plant science at our local university, but I haven’t researched it yet.
Im pretty sure they have a cannabis science dept, so it’s possible. We certainly never hear anything
locally about any such science lab. I have even less faith in making any corrections in the course
of this disease going through local establishments before January.

 

[Carol 83]

I hope you figure out the cause and the best treatment.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Do you by any chance have a heater on that patio?
After scrolling through the pictures for some time, I'm noticing that it's mostly one side of the plants that's been affected. Most of them face the wall of your home.
Fresh paint fumes maybe? A patio heater?