Is this needle cast on my Mugo pine??

[Paradox]

This just started a within the last few weeks on this mugo. I thought needle cast was more of a spring thing, but I saw a thread with similar and someone said it was needle cast.

I have been spraying this and all of my pines and junipers every 2-3 weeks with Daconil since mid-July so this is a bit disconcerting. It was all green when I started spraying. I just sprayed them all with copper tonight.

The tree was repotted at the beginning of July into a lava, pumice and gravel mix. Starting at the end of July/beginning of August I fed it with liquid miracle gro every 2 weeks.

If I can get it cured, will the needles stay yellow until they fall out or do they go back green?

Thoughts?

Thanks

 

[0soyoung]

I have been spraying this and all of my pines and junipers every 2-3 weeks with Daconil since mid-July so this is a bit disconcerting. It was all green when I started spraying. I just sprayed them all with copper tonight.

Maybe you should stop spraying that stuff.

 

[Nybonsai12]

This doesn't really look to me like what I always thought needle cast was... I thought it was more of a brownish ring around this needle, not the strong yellow at the base like I'm seeing here.

 

[Eric Schrader]

Needle cast comes in a variety of forms, but that is not needle cast. Needle cast banding would be much more randomly placed. If the entire branch was affected it would look much worse and you would see browning on most of the needles.

I see these symptoms on my Japanese black pines. There are two causes: over watering and root aphids. Root aphids are the more common cause for me lately. Try a drench in malathion as Jonas demonstrated on his blog recently. A foliar spray of imidacloprid will slow them down but may not kill all of them. I'd also advise treating any nearby pines at the same time, even if they are asymptomatic.

 

[Paradox]

Maybe you should stop spraying that stuff.

Many people spray fungicides regularly in the summer. One notable is John Kirby. Sprays all his pines with Daconil every week.

 

[Vance Wood]

You have Pine scale in a couple of locations. It is possible the scale has invaded down to the base of the needles but it does not look real bad yet. Scale is a real problem for Mugo Pines. All of the Pines can get it but Mugos see to attract is.

 

[Nybonsai12]

Is it at the base of all the needle clusters On the entire tree?
Are you noticing white spots on the soil surface? Dig a little in the soil to see if you can spot the root aphids, they are tiny. I think I remember reading in the last day or two that you may see small ants as well and they have a symbiotic relationship with the aphids. I feel like I noticed it on mine, but am not certain. I'd love to hear what you find and I hope you get it sorted out. This is frustrating to say the least and it seems everything is working against out trees.

 

[Vance Wood]

Look at the needles, especially in the second picture where they are most apparent; little white spots, some with kind little black or brown ends on them that are kind of tear shaped and mostly on the inside surfaces of the needles. If this is what I see you are fighting Pine scale. This is a difficult issue, in the past Malethion was used to battle it. I have heard that this does not work as well as it used to. The best thing you can do is catch it early before the critters form this white armor coat where they live, suck the life out the tree and reproduce. Let me know what you find and we can talk about alternate solutions, not fun solutions but they work.

 

[Paradox]

@NY I dont think it is the entire tree, but Id have to look again (cant right now its dark out there). Same with looking in the soil. Ill try that tomorrow.

@Vance The white spots you are seeing is dried fungicide on the needles. Ive seen scale before and this isnt it. I will go out there with a magnifying glass tomorrow to be sure. Ive successfully battled scale on my ficus using a soap, dormant oil and alchohol mixture and can go that route if needed. Ive also used Sevin (Carbaryl) on scale with other plants and it nuked them pretty good.

 

[Geo]

You really make a person not want to bother with pines. What is the sum total of the cocktail you have spread around. Some are telling you to add more. Maybe you caused the problem yourself. Maybe they don't like being drenched in Daconil, Malathyon or Copper all the time. Sorry for this. It is not directed at you personally. But I just instinctively raise my blood pressure when I see these chemical discussions. And, by the way, to get really nasty, in an organic way, that won't kill every beneficial organism around. (well, it will actually, including you if you are not careful. But it disappears within 24 hours) try a concentrated spray of cigarette but infusion. Kills a great many buggies.

George.

 

[sorce]

concentrated spray of cigarette but infusion.

?

I like you Geo!

I had some, what I think we're mites, on mine so I reluctantly sprayed my Dr. Earth peppermint and ass oil spray on it and they are gone.

Smells oddly good and bad, is safe and works enough.

Too many people Jump right to Blast everything mode, and all the time?!

@jkl
Please copy and paste the table management article here again!

Thank you!

Sorce

 

[Vance Wood]

Scale can be controled with the combination of PalmOlive green dishwashing soap, Acohol and Neem Oil. You have to be careful here, too much can suffocate the pores on the needles. I guarantee you have scale, this is very common with Mugos. If it is residue from fungicide it should wash off.

 

[Paradox]

Mystery Solved

The good news: it is not root aphids. I removed about 1/2 to one inch of soil. I saw no evidence of root aphids or the webby stuff they make. I did see lots of new white root tips growing all over the place.

Vance is the winner. Those white spots are fungicide BUT when I looked at the base of each needle pair, in between the needles I saw lots of scale. Sneaky little bastards. They are not visible on the upper parts of the needles nor on the exposed sides. They are hiding way down between the needles and they only way to see them was to spread the needle pairs apart.

Yes you can control with alcohol, soap, oil mix but they are thick enough and on almost all the needle pairs at this point so I covered the soil and drenched it in Sevin (Carboryl). Ive used this before to erradicate scale. I am not interested in just knocking them back and "controlling" them; I want them dead.

@Geo, I know you said you werent directing your comment at me so I am trying not to get offended. I did not cause this.

I understand your sentiment but when you spend 1000s of hours and 1000s of dollars on your trees you dont want to mess around. You are probably fortunate that you live in a very dry area. Fungus is most likely not a problem for you and probably never will be. They are a BIG problem here in the north east and everyone sprays fungicide from the end of May - the end of September.
Look up John Kirby, there are very few people that know Japanese black pines as well as he does. He sprays every week (2x as much as I do) from May/June - September. Rob a.k.a October, a member here lost a lot of his collection to fungus. I heard Ryan Neil talk about using Daconil regularly.

I have already had problems with fungus here. The big problem with some like Needle cast, is that by the time it manifests itself, its too late. Needles get infected almost a full year before they start changing colors. If you dont spray you're going to lose trees. I just spend way too much time and money to gamble like that. I am not here to constantly lose trees and have to start over with new ones.

The only thing I spray regularly is fungicide. I use insecticides only as needed. Where I live has more pesticides banned because of effects on bees or other things than probably anywhere in the country.
I dont smoke and no one in my household does. I have never heard of cigarette but infusion and I am not about to start smoking for my trees.

 

[Vance Wood]

I know my Mugos, and I know my pine scale. I have had a battle with it for over ten years when a neighbor of mine allowed a Mugo in his yard to become totally infested with it.

 

[M. Frary]

I let it rip with the pesticides too. Shoot to kill. Not pussyfooting around and checking later to see how much I killed. Like Paradox said,I want the bugs gone at the first sign of trouble.
Have a whole shelf in the shed dedicated to chemical warfare.

 

[johng]

I realize the need for some pesticides in what we do, but I have also accepted the fact that the heat and humidity of the southeast is just not that conducive to growing a number of nonnative pines. Typically bugs and such will not infest healthy trees but I find that is often not the case when trying to grow non-indigenous species...particularly pines. Personally, I don't like and don't want to have to use "chemical warfare" and I do think we have a bigger responsibility to our local environment than many folks seem to accept.

I think it is of critical importance to recognize which species do well in your environment and which do not... Needle cast, scale, tip moth, and several others maladies have forced me to make the conscience decision to not bring anymore JBP into my care. If they are constantly being attacked they will never develop into decent trees and only be a source frustration... As of this growing season, I have given away or moved all of my JBP into the ground outside of the garden. I have also decided not to grow plants that require constant preventative treatments...I just have too many plants to have to worry about that... If they can't thrive with just sun. water, and fertilizer...then they can grow in someone else's garden.

Sandy... and I certainly intend no offense and I do hope I'm wrong... but I have a prediction for your mugo...now that it has had a heavy scale infestation there will be a continuing downward spiral in terms of health for that tree...it may be a few months or a couple years but in spite of your best efforts the maladies will continue...I sadly suspect this tree will never achieve your aspirations for it. I hope you can prove me wrong!!

At least you are not dealing with needle cast...yet Unfortunately once you have it for a second season, I have not seen anyone get rid of it and most fail at managing it once it has taken hold....myself included.

 

[Paradox]

If I restricted myself to only trees that never had a fungus, pest or other problem, I would have no trees at all.

I have had scale on pines, juniper and ficus; aphids on pines, burning bush, and birch. Leaf burn on maples. Fungus on maples, azalea, juniper and pines. A few died, but many more lived.

With that train of thought, maybe I should just give up on bonsai altogether??

As I said before, I don't use insecticides unless I have to. As much as we all like the idea of being organic, it just isn't practical if you want to be able to grow anything sucessfully.

 

[Dav4]

Fwiw, I agree with John to a certain extent in that every tree I've seen with scale, be it a pine or juniper, was not exceptionally healthy when the scale appeared. Treating the scale while really nailing the horticultural demands of the given tree will go far toward keeping it disease free (or at least mostly disease free) in the future. I'm thinking this one can recover from the scale in due time if it's kept appropriately. Good luck with it.

 

[Paradox]

Fwiw, I agree with John to a certain extent in that every tree I've seen with scale, be it a pine or juniper, was not exceptionally healthy when the scale appeared. Treating the scale while really nailing the horticultural demands of the given tree will go far toward keeping it disease free (or at least mostly disease free) in the future. I'm thinking this one can recover from the scale in due time if it's kept appropriately. Good luck with it.

Thanks Dave. It certainly is possible and I would not be surprised that the tree is weak considering I just repotted it and pruned off one of the two trunks it had in July.

This particular tree is one that I have had longer than almost all others (4 years). In that time it has not had any other problems. When I looked in the soil, it had lots of nice little white root tips all over.

I agree it may be weak, but I don't think it is in dire straits yet.

 

[Smoke]

?

Dr. Earth peppermint and ass oil spray on it



Sorce

I would be very interested in this "ass oil spray". If I eat the correct foods can I make this naturally? Sounds like the "application" could be pretty fun too!