Is this nursery kurume azalea suitable for bonsai?

Mycin

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I want an azalea pre-bonsai soon, in order to have it through the winter and for all of spring. That said, it seems like mid-range azaleas are hard to find. Lots of $50-75 trees and plenty of $400+ but nothing around $100-150 in a nursery pot. That said, would this be worth buying sight unseen?

I know the kurume azaleas are used in bonsai, and that they are hardier than satsuki cultivars. So $73 for a three gallon azalea seems fair. But I've been burned with nursery stock before, so im not sure if the large bonsai azalea from Brussels is a safer bet.
 

roberthu

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Nursery azalea usually have a lot of branches from the base so it is hard to get a decent trunk size and line for bonsai. I don’t buy nursery azalea for bonsai unless I see it in person.
 

barrosinc

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They usually start from three or four cuttings. Try looking for one trunk but definitely can be made bonsai if the trunk is suitable
 

Potawatomi13

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That said, would this be worth buying sight unseen?

Maybe not. See caption below pictures? Only representing mature shrubs and likely only vaguely what you'd get from them:oops:
 

KiwiPlantGuy

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I want an azalea pre-bonsai soon, in order to have it through the winter and for all of spring. That said, it seems like mid-range azaleas are hard to find. Lots of $50-75 trees and plenty of $400+ but nothing around $100-150 in a nursery pot. That said, would this be worth buying sight unseen?

I know the kurume azaleas are used in bonsai, and that they are hardier than satsuki cultivars. So $73 for a three gallon azalea seems fair. But I've been burned with nursery stock before, so im not sure if the large bonsai azalea from Brussels is a safer bet.

Hi,
Hino Crimson is a great variety. I am unsure if my thread helps as I have been collecting Kurume and Satsuki azaleas for a few years now. Look for Kiwi’s Azaleas pre Bonsai. Lots of cultivars and all were Nursery stock as no one grows pre Bonsai azaleas here,just 1-3 year cuttings.
These azaleas are great fun and many may not turn into bonsai, because my Maples and Pines are the long, very long wait projects.
Charles
 

Woocash

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On the plant sizes tab it shows the size of a #1 container. I don’t know how prices compare over there but 60 dollars for a 3 litre pot seems very steep.
 

Mycin

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On the plant sizes tab it shows the size of a #1 container. I don’t know how prices compare over there but 60 dollars for a 3 litre pot seems very steep.

3 gallon! So ~11 liters. People claim they can be found in any nursery but I live in the third largest city in the US and have had a Devil of a time finding any in the last couple months.
 

Mycin

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They usually start from three or four cuttings. Try looking for one trunk but definitely can be made bonsai if the trunk is suitable

Ahh .. that makes sense. Gardeners care about dense foliage and flowers, so it makes sense they cultivate a couple plants in a pot. Still think I might roll the dice on this one though.

my other option seems to be paying $80 for this:

Which I’m fine with, but Id prefer not to buy prebonsai that’s already in a bonsai pot.

How frustrating that such a common plant is so hard to find after it blooms!
 

Harunobu

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There are two considerations.
1) Variety / cultivar
2) The shape and structure of the actual plant

Yes, 'Hino Crimson' can be made into a bonsai. But among the 10 000 or so varieties, I don't think it is among the best. But that also all depends on what you look for in the variety.
The nice things about Hino Crimson are that the flowers are small. Same is true for the leaves. The plant is very winter hardy. It probably has nicer bark than most other azalea (kurume often have rougher bark while satsuki have very smooth bark).
The downsides are that the flowers are boring. Only a single colour. The flower shape is less neat. The branching and backbudding is decent, but not as compact. It likely does not backbud at all naturally on longer empty branches, namely on bare branches in between nodes. On coarse vs fine growth, it is a bit more on the 'fine growth' scale.

For the specific individual, for a nursery plant you would like to observe the specific trunk structure. It may have 7 branches or more, all equal in thickness, coming from the soil line. That would limit you to a plant with 7 equal trunks and no taper on them. And a bit of a challenge to get foliage to grow back on the lower areas of these trunks. But you get a carpet of red on your tree.

The reason satsuki azalea are used for bonsai is because satsuki bonsai started out as a flower hobby. And satsuki azaleas have interesting individual flowers, Their shape is neater because of the roundness of the petals and more open nature of the flower. And there is a lot of colour variation, so that each flower is unique. This is an up close effect that is different from having a landscaping scrub covered in white/pink/red/purple.

Also, the prices confuses me. 50 dollar for a garden plant is a lot of money. So it should be a very large container size. But their #1 seems to be a normal size. Those should really be 15 to 25 dollar.

So if you have some Hino Crimson yamadori and the trunk asks to be turned into a bonsai. Or it is free and going on the compost otherwise and you want to get some azalea experience. By all means go for it. No reason why not to bonsai. Small leaves and flowers, do well in contains, and they get really old. So no reason not to.

But I wouldn't even buy a Hino Crimson as a landscaping plant. It is a Dutch cultivar from 1944. Azalea expert Hachmann rates it 3 stars. That's actually pretty good for an old cultivar. And one more star than the original Hinodegiri. But plants like 'Maruschka', 'Johanna', 'Fridoline' are similar but better. Some of those are available in the US.
And there you have azaleas like 'Red Red', 'Midnight Flare' or 'Coronado Red'. Not completely identical plants in habit, but likely superior to Hino Crimson.
And that's for landscaping.

For bonsai, to me the flowers are key. You aren't going to get a huge strong tree very quickly. So you want a flower display tree. And for that, you need some flashy flowers.
I also do recommend satsuki for those in zone 7 or higher, because they backbud more easily and this makes them easier to train. No need to chop and prune very aggressive to get new branches on your trunk. And it is my personal opinion that R.indicum(satsuki) foliage looks way better than any other azalea species.
Furthermore, you can get many many native American hybrids. Bonsai people love to mention that one should work with native species. Well, you can work with native hybrids. That's close enough.

Deep Sea Driver recently found this place:

They have a very rich specialized assortment of azaleas, including many Japanese and native satsuki types. And they say they sell small plants/liners though mail order (interstate?).
If I understand their mail order details, you can get a batch of 18 small plants, extremely flashy and interesting cultivar, that are easy to train because of their satsuki/R.indicum nature, for less money than that you can buy that Hino Crimson that you have no idea how it looks. They wouldn't be bonsai whips, but they are 1 cutting in a pot(I assume, as they are liners) and young enough to direct towards a single trunk, I would imagine. Or the Brussel's no-name satsuki (probably Osakazuki) where even the stock picture has a bad trunk.

There are other places like White's Nursery, Nuccio's, van Veen, Talbott Nursery, Southern Living, any probably many others.

And if you don't care about flowers at all, because you like your traditional bonsai designs. That's fair. But then for sure you need to go to a nursery and observe individual plants.
 
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Mycin

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There are two considerations.
1) Variety / cultivar
2) The shape and structure of the actual plant

Yes, 'Hino Crimson' can be made into a bonsai. But among the 10 000 or so varieties, I don't think it is among the best. But that also all depends on what you look for in the variety.
The nice things about Hino Crimson are that the flowers are small. Same is true for the leaves. The plant is very winter hardy. It probably has nicer bark than most other azalea (kurume often have rougher bark while satsuki have very smooth bark).
The downsides are that the flowers are boring. Only a single colour. The flower shape is less neat. The branching and backbudding is decent, but not as compact. It likely does not backbud at all naturally on longer empty branches, namely on bare branches in between nodes. On coarse vs fine growth, it is a bit more on the 'fine growth' scale.

For the specific individual, for a nursery plant you would like to observe the specific trunk structure. It may have 7 branches or more, all equal in thickness, coming from the soil line. That would limit you to a plant with 7 equal trunks and no taper on them. And a bit of a challenge to get foliage to grow back on the lower areas of these trunks. But you get a carpet of red on your tree.

The reason satsuki azalea are used for bonsai is because satsuki bonsai started out as a flower hobby. And satsuki azaleas have interesting individual flowers, Their shape is neater because of the roundness of the petals and more open nature of the flower. And there is a lot of colour variation, so that each flower is unique. This is an up close effect that is different from having a landscaping scrub covered in white/pink/red/purple.

Also, the prices confuses me. 50 dollar for a garden plant is a lot of money. So it should be a very large container size. But their #1 seems to be a normal size. Those should really be 15 to 25 dollar.

So if you have some Hino Crimson yamadori and the trunk asks to be turned into a bonsai. Or it is free and going on the compost otherwise and you want to get some azalea experience. By all means go for it. No reason why not to bonsai. Small leaves and flowers, do well in contains, and they get really old. So no reason not to.

But I wouldn't even buy a Hino Crimson as a landscaping plant. It is a Dutch cultivar from 1944. Azalea expert Hachmann rates it 3 stars. That's actually pretty good for an old cultivar. And one more star than the original Hinodegiri. But plants like 'Maruschka', 'Johanna', 'Fridoline' are similar but better. Some of those are available in the US.
And there you have azaleas like 'Red Red', 'Midnight Flare' or 'Coronado Red'. Not completely identical plants in habit, but likely superior to Hino Crimson.
And that's for landscaping.

For bonsai, to me the flowers are key. You aren't going to get a huge strong tree very quickly. So you want a flower display tree. And for that, you need some flashy flowers.
I also do recommend satsuki for those in zone 7 or higher, because they backbud more easily and this makes them easier to train. No need to chop and prune very aggressive to get new branches on your trunk. And it is my personal opinion that R.indicum(satsuki) foliage looks way better than any other azalea species.
Furthermore, you can get many many native American hybrids. Bonsai people love to mention that one should work with native species. Well, you can work with native hybrids. That's close enough.

Deep Sea Driver recently found this place:

They have a very rich specialized assortment of azaleas, including many Japanese and native satsuki types. And they say they sell small plants/liners though mail order (interstate?).
If I understand their mail order details, you can get a batch of 18 small plants, extremely flashy and interesting cultivar, that are easy to train because of their satsuki/R.indicum nature, for less money than that you can buy that Hino Crimson that you have no idea how it looks. They wouldn't be bonsai whips, but they are 1 cutting in a pot(I assume, as they are liners) and young enough to direct towards a single trunk, I would imagine. Or the Brussel's no-name satsuki (probably Osakazuki) where even the stock picture has a bad trunk.

There are other places like White's Nursery, Nuccio's, van Veen, Talbott Nursery, Southern Living, any probably many others.

And if you don't care about flowers at all, because you like your traditional bonsai designs. That's fair. But then for sure you need to go to a nursery and observe individual plants.

yessss .. this is exactly what I was looking for.

I'm sorry to have asked such a basic question but it seems like the better the bonsai nursery, the harder it is to find online! Many thanks
 

Harunobu

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Ah, I see now you are in zone 5b. That's a hard zone for evergreen azaleas. Some still do well there, but this of course explains while locally you aren't able to find many. There are ones like 'Karens', 'Herbert', 'Rose Greely' and some others that are common and survive the cold winters in zone 5. And I kinda say that Hino Crimson would be a little bit more suitable for bonsai than those. The hardiest varieties almost always have genes from the Korean specias rhododendron yedoense var. poukhanense. And while this species has some nice large flowers, the leaves are also way larger. It has much more rough coarse growth. And it loses almost all leaves in autumn (hence it is more winter hardy), so it doesn't look as attractive as a tree outside of the growing season. With those large leaf varieties, your entire bonsai will need to be bigger to still have a finer branch structure. And as the trunk diameter doubles, time to grow that trunk may quadruple.
And in a bonsai pot, they will likely be hardy a zone higher. So without any winter protection, you would need a zone 4 azalea to have them survive for you. And all zone 4 azaleas are deciduous azaleas.

These listed on the Arkansas site, most will be hardy to zone 7, some 6. As you can imagine, there is often a trade-off between (winter) hardiness and ornamental qualities; the varieties with the most persistent leaves, the largest flowers, the most interesting patterns, they often aren't as hardy. So you will need some winter protection scheme for your potted evergreen azaleas.

Yeah, it is quite hard to find azaleas that are old, but don't have multi-branched reverse taper structure bad for bonsai. And they also don't grow the best nebari without training either.
And young plants can still go that way, but that takes years. So the few satsuki bonsai that are of good quality are really really expensive. See the nice ones that near 1000-2000 dollar on Brussel's bonsai. Those are imported from Japan by people who really know what they are doing, usually family business nurseries.

But, there are nice cultivars out there at specialty nurseries. And with time and proper training, they could approach these Japanese trees.
 

Forsoothe!

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Me, too. Don't buy an Azalea unless you can see how many "trunks" are there. "Trunks", meaning individuals because that's how growers make landscape-sized plants bigger for market. Sometimes they fuse early in the process, but not often and you have to see them up close and personal to make the judgement about what is usable as a bonsai.
 

Woocash

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3 gallon! So ~11 liters. People claim they can be found in any nursery but I live in the third largest city in the US and have had a Devil of a time finding any in the last couple months.
6D2D399C-0215-4F52-9AA5-91FDF310853F.png1A18FC7D-9E74-471E-BEBE-96595E1CEA94.jpeg
Just reading the fine print. If they are rare as hen’s teeth though...
 

Harunobu

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They are not rare. It is one of the most popular old cultivar. I saw a nice article about azaleas in Vancouver: old gardens have Hino Crimson, new ones don't (you have to scroll down a bit on that link).

If I compare apples with apples, my local Dutch nursery sells a 3 liter Hino Crimson for 10 euro.
Of course shipping comes on top of that. But I just bought from them 4 azaleas in 3 liter pots, and I am paying 61 euro including shipping.

That price for a landscape azalea in a 3 liter pot seems very high. There is a German nursery that sells larger size azaleas; 50 euro for a 40cm diameter, 50cm height. That's 60 liters. They also sell a huge size that costs 700 euro for some varieties. Who buys these huge landscape plants? Like high end landscaping for brand new 5 star hotels or something?

White's Nursery has a very good selection, but I hear they don't ship at all:

Buy a staple bonsai azalea, 'Osakazuki' in a 15-18" pot, for 18 dollar. Not sure what that is in gallon or liter, don't understand their pot sizes. But that should be a decent normal size for a nursery plant. The #1 container from Nature Hills is a 2.5 year old plant. That's not a lot of years, to be honest, to be charging that much money for it.

If you are really crazy about doing azalea bonsai, I would drive from Chicago to White's Nursery in Germantown, MD. And then you can select the ones with the best trunks so there is a good bonsai design hidden in their branch structure.
(Or maybe inform with your local azalea/rhododendron society chapter for a specialty nursery in IL because I am just a Dutch guy using google, and there many be nice nurseries without an online presence to save you the 2x 10 hour drive).
Alternatively, order those liners and grow your own trunks over a couple to many years.
Or, wait until next year when it is azalea time and buy Herbert or Stewartstonian from your local nursery that right now already either sold their azalea, or threw them away because they didn't sell.
 
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Leo in N E Illinois

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I have the "no cultivar name" satsuki azalea from Brussel's. It has plain pink flowers, that I find a bit of a yawn. I did get a passable single trunk for $50 in a plastic pot. But it is not something I am excited about. If you want it, we could arrange to meet sometime. Maybe at Sorce's place.

Myself, I like the flowers and the cold hardiness of 'Hino-Crimson'. so depending on where you plan on wintering the azalea, 'Hino-Crimson' is not a bad choice. The growth habits are not as bad as Harunobu makes them out to be, they do make very nice medium size bonsai. He is right, because of leaf size shohin is not the best size for 'Hino-Crimson'. But as a bonsai it has a good tract record. The price of the 'Hino-Crimson' is in the "fair" range, a bit high, if the price includes shipping that's better, if shipping is extra, you might keep looking.

You don't see many azaleas for sale in the Chicago-Milwaukee area. Reason, our soils are derived from glacial loess, and glacial deposits which include limestone from our underlying limestone bedrock. This means our local soils are rich in lime, which most azalea hate. So in the landscape, azaleas do very poor unless the native soil is removed and replaced with a peat and bark blend. Most landscape nurseries don't bother with azalea as most die. The second reason, is most azalea are only marginally winter hardy here. Often the only azaleas you see are the deciduous azalea.

I have had good luck buying from David Kreutz, though David is hard to track down lately. You pretty much have to see him as a vendor at a bonsai show. David does have great, imported from Japan, named varieties of Satsuki.

Brussel's has very few named varieties of Satsuki where the labelling survived intact through the import process except for their more expensive specimen trees, which I prefer to shop in person than on line. Brussel's is great if you happen to get to the Mississippi suburbs south of Memphis to shop in person, I'm not big on mail order from them.

For younger, mail order Satsuki, with proper labelling, I have been ordering from Singing Tree Nursery. Generally for $25 or less, you can get nice "1 gallon size" azalea with single trunks and you can order them by cultivar. They keep some 50 or more different azaleas in stock. These are young plants, but I have been pleased with their sizes and quality. They are not first year rooted cuts, most seem to be 3 or more years old.


I do winter all my azaleas in my well house, it is a below ground, unheated space that stays between 32 F and 40 F for the entire winter. (0C to +4 C). If you can keep the temp below 40 F you do not need light. If you can not get that cold, then you need light over the winter. Most Satsuki will set growth for spring without extremely cold temperatures. They bloom Satsuki in Hawaii, mostly by just getting the temps to drop into the low 60's F and upper 50's F at night. (60 F = 15.5 C)
 

Harunobu

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You are right, Leo. Hino Crimson is definitely very bonsai-able for an evergreen azalea. And there are several excellent examples. If the flowers convince you, the downsides on plant habit I mentioned are quite manageable. But like the article, I do think Hino Crimson is a superseded cultivar. Of course, you can prefer the understated look. And those azaleas that make Hino Crimson obsolete, for bonsai purposes, Hino Crimson is arguably better for bonsai than for example the 'Johanna' cultivar that kind of makes Hino Crimson obselete for landscaping.. And also better than the common hardy evergreen azalea cultivar in IL. I am actually one of those people trying to dispel the myth that kurume cannot be used and everything hs to be a satsuki and have a Japanese name. But I definitely wouldn't blindly buy an overpriced Hino Crimson online.

But in terms of trunk chopping, following the technique described by John Geanangel here

The Hino Crimson ones won't respond as John's Chizan's did. You see the kurume style backbudding in the azalea competition subforum. Often, fewer buds and near the surface of cutting. But my reasoning is that when you blindly buy a nursery stock azalea, it is smarter to buy one that responds a little better to that style of pruning by backbudding more.
Of course, there are more gentle and patient techniques.

In the end, it really depends on what kind of design is hidden in the branch structure of that specific piece of nursery stock. That could superside all this flower and cultivar talk. But yes, I am picky about my azalea flowers.

Never the Singing Tree Gardens Nursery link, so nice find. If you point a gun at my head and ask me what cultivar a beginner interested in bonsai should buy and that doesn't really care about flowers at all, I'd tell them to buy 'Shiryu no Homare' (or Hoshi no Kagayaki, cannot decide). And that nursery sells the first one. So there you go.

I think the nicer kurumes for bonsai are those bicolours with white centers, because the flowers. Mangetsu, Kumo Kulshan, Kermesinum Rosa,etc. Smalle flowers than almost any satsuki as well.
 
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Mapleminx

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There is a German nursery that sells larger size azaleas; 50 euro for a 40cm diameter, 50cm height. That's 60 liters. They also sell a huge size that costs 700 euro for some varieties. Who buys these huge landscape plants? Like high end landscaping for brand new 5 star hotels or something?

I have often wondered the same when I walk past XXXL trees in pots styled like you would a bonsai but so huge they don’t look “right” with price tags in the thousands. Who walks into a garden center and says “yeah I’ll take that one over there for 5000€? And it’s not like they have just one for sale, no they have a whole selection as if it’s stock that moves fast 😲.
 

Harunobu

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It must be high level stuff like people opening their corporate headquarters where they make million dollar deals. And they want their garden to have some class. So they can't plant small plants and wait 5 years for it to look like a mature garden. There must be top level garden architects that get juicy contracts. And they must not skimp on money as they have a big budget to spend. But yeah 5000 dollar 30 year old pines for landscaping, or huge fat Japanese maples. There is this market for bonsai-like garden plants. Also not a nursery operation you easily get into, as it takes decades to grow. Very analogous to bonsai.

At least with olive trees I think they come from olive vineyards in the Mediterranean, so they were collected and not grown for that purpose. Doubt those things move fast.
 
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