Is this Sunshine Sphagnum Moss suitable for starting seeds?

[777thSunRay]

So I'm wondering if this particular brand and variety, Sunshine Sphagnum Peat Moss, will work well with starting seeds. I know that it's not as high quality as the Orchid Moss, but it's pricier than a bag I returned recently, which was basically like soil. This seems to be in strands but not puffed up like Orchid Moss. So is this the kind of thing intended for germinating trees in trays?

 

[sorce]

"Sunshine from California."

Sorce

 

[Srt8madness]

So I'm wondering if this particular brand and variety, Sunshine Sphagnum Peat Moss, will work well with starting seeds. I know that it's not as high quality as the Orchid Moss, but it's pricier than a bag I returned recently, which was basically like soil. This seems to be in strands but not puffed up like Orchid Moss. So is this the kind of thing intended for germinating trees in trays?View attachment 441844

What you returned was peat moss, NOT sphagnum peat moss. Peat moss is "like" dirt, and often used for seed started with a bit of perlite mixed in.
Sphagnum peat moss is the stuff you put orchids in and that Peter Chan uses to strengthen maples. It has some other uses too. I've used it for starting bald cypress seeds, but it was kind of a pain in the ass.
You had the right stuff the first time

But hey, I learned the difference from experience too.

 

[Bnana]

It's quite confusing to call it "peat moss" while it is not moss, but peat. It should be called moss peat.

 

[Shibui]

It's quite confusing to call it "peat moss" while it is not moss, but peat. It should be called moss peat.

Agreed.
The intact stems and leaves of sphagnum is used for some orchids and some growers spread it on the surface of repotted bonsai. That is 'sphagnum moss'
As the plants die in the swamp the stems and 'leaves' slowly decay. Eventually that forms peat - brown, soil like stuff. That is known as peat or sometimes peat moss to differentiate from lower quality peats derived from reeds, rushes and other swamp plants. Peat is used as an additive to some potting soils to hold more water and fertilizer. Obviously in some swamps the peat is older and more decayed so peat can vary from one place to another.
Some specific seeds are germinated on sphagnum moss, usually live moss but that's mostly restricted to a few orchids and swamp loving plants like carnivorous species. Most seeds germinate and grow much better in something more like soil.
Pic through the plastic is not quite clear but looks like some fibres so this could be moss or could be partly decayed moss. For use in germinating general seeds you'll need to mill or sieve it to break it up into particles otherwise the seeds are likely to fall down through the spaces.
Peat is generally used for seed mix. My guess is what you took back is what you really want for seed mix.

Not all seed mix uses peat. For most seeds suitable for bonsai I just use the same soil I use for my trees.

If you are buying components to make seed mix why not but a bag of seed raising mix? It is professionally designed to be just what most seeds like so great all round soil without the hassle of finding components and working out how much of them to mix.

 

[Bnana]

All peat extraction is bad for the climate. Peatlands form 3% of the earth but store twice as much carbon as all forests.
Draining the peat and digging it up eventually releases all this carbon. So it makes sense that more and more countries ban the use.
Live sphagnum moss can be harvested sustainably but rarely is.

For Bonsai you do not need either, a mixture of sand with some compost and perlite (if you want) works great.

 

[Srt8madness]

All peat extraction is bad for the climate. Peatlands form 3% of the earth but store twice as much carbon as all forests.
Draining the peat and digging it up eventually releases all this carbon. So it makes sense that more and more countries ban the use.
Live sphagnum moss can be harvested sustainably but rarely is.

For Bonsai you do not need either, a mixture of sand with some compost and perlite (if you want) works great.

Coco Coir is a decent alt to peat moss. It's lighter and a bit messy to work with but that's ok for doing a little part to help the planet.

 

[Bnana]

Coco coir is a good alternative for things like carnivorous plants. For Bonsai seedlings it works well but is not needed.

 

[Srt8madness]

Coco coir is a good alternative for things like carnivorous plants. For Bonsai seedlings it works well but is not needed.

Coir is a good alt for most seed germination. There's a reason pro mix is peat and perlite, a soiless mix. Germinating seeds in composts adds the likelihood of failure from fungal infection. A heavier mixture like sand and compost increases likelihood of root breakage when transplanting.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Ok. I went through the research on this subject. Things are never what they seem, especially when ad agencies get down and dirty greenwashing their latest $@#&!! new product.

If it comes to environmentally sustainable materials coconut coir is absolutely not.

Neither is harvesting peat using old time methods of draining and digging wetlands. Chilean companies harvesting of the massive Patagonian peat bogs in concert with the government is the latest sad example.

Newer, more environmentally responsible peat harvesting methods are being used more and more. Particularly for harvesting Sphagnum moss. The folks in New Zealand were some of the first to do this.

Yet harvesting coco coir requires bulldozing tropical forests, using fertilizer, herbicides and pesticides and causing massive erosion of the thin soils on volcanic that coral lands and end up fouling rivers and choking coral reefs.

I posted a more complete picture of the situation, with references on this thread post #16 if you are interested.

Cheers !
DSD sends

 

[Srt8madness]

Ok. I went through the research on this subject. Things are never what they seem, especially when ad agencies get down and dirty greenwashing their latest $@#&!! new product.

If it comes to environmentally sustainable materials coconut coir is absolutely not.

Neither is harvesting peat using old time methods of draining and digging wetlands. Chilean companies harvesting of the massive Patagonian peat bogs in concert with the government is the latest sad example.

Newer, more environmentally responsible peat harvesting methods are being used more and more. Particularly for harvesting Sphagnum moss. The folks in New Zealand were some of the first to do this.

Yet harvesting coco coir requires bulldozing tropical forests, using fertilizer, herbicides and pesticides and causing massive erosion of the thin soils on volcanic that coral lands and end up fouling rivers and choking coral reefs.

I posted a more complete picture of the situation, with references on this thread post #16 if you are interested.

Cheers !
DSD sends

How does harvesting Coco coir require what you claim, when there are already massive stockpiles of it, as a byproduct of the existing coconut industry? The drying beds?

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

I apologize in advance for derailing this thread somewhat, yet I think it’s relevant.

@Srt8madness I will answer your premise, please don’t take this personally.

I’m going to assume you’ve read through the references attached in my post. Also I’m going to assume that we both agree bonsai hobbyists all try to be as circumspect of the environment as possible when pursuing this hobby.

The way I read the premise of your question is: (and I’m sorry if I got this wrong)

“ Is it ok to foster the demand for a product that in its manufacture has caused vast immediate environmental degradation… because it merely an ‘excess product’ of the “major” product being produced?”

That’s an interesting question.

Yet coir is an actual product… a product of the coconut plantation industry all on its very own. It always has been a product on its own.

In one example: Back in the day, ships wouldn’t float without oakum to stuff the seams between the planks and wouldn’t sail without lines, or ‘ropes’, to rig and propel the ships with.

Similarly sawdust is a both an excess product from sawing wood and a product of the timber industry.

Both coir and sawdust use chemicals and energy in processing, energy in transportation. Both are considered when capitalizing new plantations or leasing forest land.

The key difference in this simplistic example is the forest industry has been under increasing regulation to be mindful of their responsibility to respect the environment.

On the other hand, the coconut plantations have steadfastedly avoided regulation by various methods, at least some of which could be termed as nefarious.

Would I avoid buying it myself? Sure and I also avoid buying other “coco’ products.

Perhaps I have a different perspective then many folks?

I hope that answers your question.

cheers
DSD sends

 

[777thSunRay]

Agreed.
The intact stems and leaves of sphagnum is used for some orchids and some growers spread it on the surface of repotted bonsai. That is 'sphagnum moss'
As the plants die in the swamp the stems and 'leaves' slowly decay. Eventually that forms peat - brown, soil like stuff. That is known as peat or sometimes peat moss to differentiate from lower quality peats derived from reeds, rushes and other swamp plants. Peat is used as an additive to some potting soils to hold more water and fertilizer. Obviously in some swamps the peat is older and more decayed so peat can vary from one place to another.
Some specific seeds are germinated on sphagnum moss, usually live moss but that's mostly restricted to a few orchids and swamp loving plants like carnivorous species. Most seeds germinate and grow much better in something more like soil.
Pic through the plastic is not quite clear but looks like some fibres so this could be moss or could be partly decayed moss. For use in germinating general seeds you'll need to mill or sieve it to break it up into particles otherwise the seeds are likely to fall down through the spaces.
Peat is generally used for seed mix. My guess is what you took back is what you really want for seed mix.

Not all seed mix uses peat. For most seeds suitable for bonsai I just use the same soil I use for my trees.

If you are buying components to make seed mix why not but a bag of seed raising mix? It is professionally designed to be just what most seeds like so great all round soil without the hassle of finding components and working out how much of them to mix.

Thanks all, for all the information.

@Shibui would you perhaps recommend a brand for seeding mix?

 

[Shibui]

@Shibui would you perhaps recommend a brand for seeding mix?

You are in California. I'm in southern Australia. Recommendation of brands for you is meaningless as you are very unlikely to have any of our brands on your shelves.
Just go down to your plant store and see what is available. There's usually a wide range of potting soil but usually very little choice in specialist products like seed raising mix here so I guess it will be similar over there.
Most seed you are likely to grow will be fine in a wide range of different soils so, unless you are growing something really special, it probably won't matter who made it.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Sungro Black Gold seedling mix is fairly popular nationwide. I've used it for years for seed starting and growing cuttings.

Here's an amazon link to this product and many other similar products are shown in the similar product bar below.

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[Bnana]

I agree that there are issues with coco-coir but there are suppliers that do it the right way.
The example of sustainable peat is misleading, this is sphagnum (the moss) not peat. Sphagnum can be grown and harvested, but that's not being done (or feasible) with peat.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Sphagnum moss...





Run it through bonsai soil mesh to break it into smaller pieces. Great seed starting medium.

 

[penumbra]

Run it through bonsai soil mesh to break it into smaller pieces. Great seed starting medium.

I chop it in a blender.
It's ok. I run the kitchen in my house. No one is the wiser.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Sphagnum moss is a good alternative to a seedling mix. It does have some disadvantages for growing on very small seeds and stabilizing cuttings like azaleas, yet for bigger seeds it works well.

@Bnana ”The example of sustainable peat is misleading, this is sphagnum (the moss) not peat. Sphagnum can be grown and harvested, but that's not being done (or feasible) with peat.”

One has to create functioning Sphagnum growth to get peat. Canada scientists and suppliers have been working for over twenty years to create techniques to more sustainably harvest and then restore peat bog lands to normal function right after harvest. The big fires and huge rain on snow flooding events in Canada, which has 1/4 of the world’s peat bogs, have pushed these actions high up their priority list.

In the EU this statement things are different as the peat lands there have been under harvesting pressure for many more centuries. The efforts there appear to mostly be aimed at conservation and restoration of sites degraded years ago. Yet that is a good first step.

cheers
DSD sends

 

[Bnana]

One has to create functioning Sphagnum growth to get peat. Canada scientists and suppliers have been working for over twenty years to create techniques to more sustainably harvest and then restore peat bog lands to normal function right after harvest. The big fires and huge rain on snow flooding events in Canada, which has 1/4 of the world’s peat bogs, have pushed these actions high up their priority list.

This will give you sphagnum moss, not peat. Peat is what you get when these mosses are covered by new layers and are partly decomposed over decades or centuries.
The peat that has been removed will be CO2 and it takes ages to regrow. Yes you can restore a peatbog but sustainable production of peat is something else.