Is this Sunshine Sphagnum Moss suitable for starting seeds?

[Deep Sea Diver]

This is true, peat bogs will be restored in a long time.. Functioning starting almost immediately and ramping up to normal Sphagnum growth in about five years when done properly. Each bog, however, is in a constrained area.

In contrast, how long will it take for the widespread areas devastated, including soil, water quality, fresh and salt water fish, siltation and coral reefs of the world devastated coconut plantations to be restored? On the other hand, consider the CO2 uptake and output of this process vs that of a functioning tropical rain forest. Imho there is no sustainability here, only mitigation measures.

Sustaining the environment involves a constant series of decisions weighing the merits of ‘competing goods’ (or competing bads, as my students called it) and an individual consumers level of environmental and product knowledge.

I’m not just talking theory. I’ve been in many areas in the tropical Pacific, doing underwater surveying and recreational diving for 50 years. This is not some abstract thing. But regretfully, it’s only one small item compared to the ‘laundry’ list of environmental and personal issues we face today.

cheers
DSD sends

 

[777thSunRay]

Sphagnum moss...

View attachment 442123

View attachment 442124

Run it through bonsai soil mesh to break it into smaller pieces. Great seed starting medium.

This is pretty pricey, right? Orchid grade sphagnum moss? Seems great (and lovely to look at hah) but I have to be a bit more cost efficient!

 

[777thSunRay]

Sungro Black Gold seedling mix is fairly popular nationwide. I've used it for years for seed starting and growing cuttings.

Here's an amazon link to this product and many other similar products are shown in the similar product bar below.

Cheers
DSD sends

I have the impression that Black Gold and Miracle Gro are competitive, but that Black Gold is priced higher due to its being organic, is that correct?

 

[777thSunRay]

You are in California. I'm in southern Australia. Recommendation of brands for you is meaningless as you are very unlikely to have any of our brands on your shelves.
Just go down to your plant store and see what is available. There's usually a wide range of potting soil but usually very little choice in specialist products like seed raising mix here so I guess it will be similar over there.
Most seed you are likely to grow will be fine in a wide range of different soils so, unless you are growing something really special, it probably won't matter who made it.

Well in a sense all I'm growing is special, as I'm growing lots of seeds, and I want a high success rate with very vigorous plants. But I'm glad for your advice to use a pre made mix, approaching when I plant outside. I am ordering, and it will arrive on the solstice I am thinking I'll simply go with Miracle Gro seed starter, plus they have a solution for seedlings. Hopefully it will work well with my plans, and plants! Thanks again

 

[Bonsai Nut]

This is pretty pricey, right? Orchid grade sphagnum moss? Seems great (and lovely to look at hah) but I have to be a bit more cost efficient!

How many square yards of seeds do you plan to start? I use sphagnum moss for a lot of purposes (air layers, top dressings, cold stratifying) and always like to have some on hand.

I don't consider it expensive, compared to the cost of problems I have had with other media. Sustainably harvested from New Zealand no less, without "additives" that will cause you problems down the road.

 

[777thSunRay]

It will be approximately 1 square yard. I guess that can't be too expensive!

So the additives in Miracle Gro, etc., are actually detrimental? If so, do you add any kind of solution, or just water to start seeds?

 

[Bonsai Nut]

It will be approximately 1 square yard. I guess that can't be too expensive!

So the additives in Miracle Gro, etc., are actually detrimental? If so, do you add any kind of solution, or just water to start seeds?

A seedling doesn't need (won't use) fertilizer until it sprouts its first leaves. (Not the cotyledons). In a perfect world, you are looking for sterile media that can remain uniformly moist (not wet) until this stage... which for a tree seed could be a month, but in some cases might be as long as four-six months. (Tree seeds usually take longer to germinate than plant seeds - a tomato plant germinates in a WEEK).

People use organic, fertilized media, and then wonder why they have problems with fungus or "damping off" of tree seedlings. What works for a tomato plant may not be the best solution for a Japanese maple.

Additionally, you have to watch problems with media drying. Peat and some soil mixes become hydrophobic when dry (unlike sphagnum). If you have a planting bed out in the sun, depending on depth, you may find yourself with problems associated with the surface drying out, while the deeper layers of the substrate retain too much water. You see the dry layer, and water... and the water doesn't really soak in so you overwater... etc. Sphagnum doesn't have this problem.

I freely admit, there are times when I don't use spagnum, because I am being lazy, or I don't have it available. But if it is an important project, I try to always use it. There is a reason why people use it - not because they just want to spend extra $$$. And if I don't use it, I will generally go with a fine non-organic mix (pumice fines primarily, which I save when I sift my pumice) or with a fine pine bark mix (fines which I save when I sift my pine bark). I simply haven't had good results with most potting soil mixes. I have used screened peat in the past, and had decent results, but struggled with keeping it uniformly moist.

 

[Vance Wood]

What you returned was peat moss, NOT sphagnum peat moss. Peat moss is "like" dirt, and often used for seed started with a bit of perlite mixed in.
Sphagnum peat moss is the stuff you put orchids in and that Peter Chan uses to strengthen maples. It has some other uses too. I've used it for starting bald cypress seeds, but it was kind of a pain in the ass.
You had the right stuff the first time

But hey, I learned the difference from experience too.

It is often fatal to humans if the dust and air-born particles are inhaled. There was an individual who had a bonsai program on TV, years ago, who planted his work in this stuff and he died of what amounts to black lung disease. So if you are going to use this please use protection.

 

[HorseloverFat]

Ok. I went through the research on this subject. Things are never what they seem, especially when ad agencies get down and dirty greenwashing their latest $@#&!! new product.

If it comes to environmentally sustainable materials coconut coir is absolutely not.

Neither is harvesting peat using old time methods of draining and digging wetlands. Chilean companies harvesting of the massive Patagonian peat bogs in concert with the government is the latest sad example.

Newer, more environmentally responsible peat harvesting methods are being used more and more. Particularly for harvesting Sphagnum moss. The folks in New Zealand were some of the first to do this.

Yet harvesting coco coir requires bulldozing tropical forests, using fertilizer, herbicides and pesticides and causing massive erosion of the thin soils on volcanic that coral lands and end up fouling rivers and choking coral reefs.

I posted a more complete picture of the situation, with references on this thread post #16 if you are interested.

Cheers !
DSD sends

Whaaaaaaaa?

That's crazy!

 

[HorseloverFat]

This is true, peat bogs will be restored in a long time.. Functioning starting almost immediately and ramping up to normal Sphagnum growth in about five years when done properly. Each bog, however, is in a constrained area.

In contrast, how long will it take for the widespread areas devastated, including soil, water quality, fresh and salt water fish, siltation and coral reefs of the world devastated coconut plantations to be restored? On the other hand, consider the CO2 uptake and output of this process vs that of a functioning tropical rain forest. Imho there is no sustainability here, only mitigation measures.

Sustaining the environment involves a constant series of decisions weighing the merits of ‘competing goods’ (or competing bads, as my students called it) and an individual consumers level of environmental and product knowledge.

I’m not just talking theory. I’ve been in many areas in the tropical Pacific, doing underwater surveying and recreational diving for 50 years. This is not some abstract thing. But regretfully, it’s only one small item compared to the ‘laundry’ list of environmental and personal issues we face today.

cheers
DSD sends

I love this post, DSD.

Many people say, "Global Warming/climate events" are traceable and everything is "fine"

Those people are obviously NOT out in nature often...

The earth is hurting.. and you can hear it,. you can FEEL it.

Living highrise in a polluted cityline, talking 'bout, "Farmers need to get their emissions worked out."

We (EVERY side) has this thing SO backwards..

Environmental issues are simply used as political weapons..

The dreddlocked fella in the "Save the planet" t-shirt that preaches "Reduce, Re-use and recycle" to anyone who will listen STILL throws his cigarette buts on the ground.

Seems like one side "cares" because they feel they HAVE to (as part of their "side's" identity). and the other side DOESN'T care, because DISAGREEING with the first side... is part of THEIR 'side's' identity..

So nothing is done... just finger-pointing and juvenile arguing, all while our world melts and fills with garbage.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

I have the impression that Black Gold and Miracle Gro are competitive, but that Black Gold is priced higher due to its being organic, is that correct?

Black Gold is rated by OMRI and Miracle Gro is not. Miracle Gro has fertilizer 3-3-3 included, which Black Gold does not. I’ve gotten Black Gold cheaper during the off season, which is when I usually purchase it… and in a 1.5 cuff bag.

Fertilizer isn’t usually used in seedling mixes as it is not needed as seeds have all the materials needed within a seed coat. Personally I do not use fertilizer on my seedlings or cuttings until +4 weeks after germination/striking.

I’ve discovered in the nursery/bonsai hobbies that price frequently has little to do with quality. Finally I’ve never tested the mixes side, so give it a try.

cheers
DSD sends

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

I love this post, DSD.….

So nothing is done... just finger-pointing and juvenile arguing, all while our world melts and fills with garbage.

Our environment is constantly under individual pressures by consumers to choose between what is good for them in the short term vs what is good for the environment/all of us in the long term.

The results of these individual decisions is what we see in the long term when we get out and look around over time.

There is a concept, coined the Tragedy of the Commons that folks are becoming slowly more familiar with that is being played out. A very simple explanation is posted here.

cheers
DSD sends

 

[HorseloverFat]

That's FANTASTIC!

I understand each of those facets well..

I'd never heard the ENTIRE action/inaction (by humans discussed in that link) referred to as anything.

"Tragedy of the Commons" is apt.. as HELL.

Thank you for sharing.

 

[777thSunRay]

A seedling doesn't need (won't use) fertilizer until it sprouts its first leaves. (Not the cotyledons). In a perfect world, you are looking for sterile media that can remain uniformly moist (not wet) until this stage... which for a tree seed could be a month, but in some cases might be as long as four-six months. (Tree seeds usually take longer to germinate than plant seeds - a tomato plant germinates in a WEEK).

People use organic, fertilized media, and then wonder why they have problems with fungus or "damping off" of tree seedlings. What works for a tomato plant may not be the best solution for a Japanese maple.

Additionally, you have to watch problems with media drying. Peat and some soil mixes become hydrophobic when dry (unlike sphagnum). If you have a planting bed out in the sun, depending on depth, you may find yourself with problems associated with the surface drying out, while the deeper layers of the substrate retain too much water. You see the dry layer, and water... and the water doesn't really soak in so you overwater... etc. Sphagnum doesn't have this problem.

I freely admit, there are times when I don't use spagnum, because I am being lazy, or I don't have it available. But if it is an important project, I try to always use it. There is a reason why people use it - not because they just want to spend extra $$$. And if I don't use it, I will generally go with a fine non-organic mix (pumice fines primarily, which I save when I sift my pumice) or with a fine pine bark mix (fines which I save when I sift my pine bark). I simply haven't had good results with most potting soil mixes. I have used screened peat in the past, and had decent results, but struggled with keeping it uniformly moist.

Okay, this is all great to know! So you do not add any other substrates to the Sphagnum moss? I have perlite, pumice, and vermiculite. Can I place the trays in the sun, perhaps with the clear lid and ventilated? (even with heat pad and thermostat, if so, at what temps?) This is kind of my only project for the time being, so I want to create ideal conditions.

Thank you again!

Oh I nearly forgot, would you suggest a source for a high quality Sphagnum moss, either in your former area (mine haha), or online?

 

[Srt8madness]

It is often fatal to humans if the dust and air-born particles are inhaled. There was an individual who had a bonsai program on TV, years ago, who planted his work in this stuff and he died of what amounts to black lung disease. So if you are going to use this please use protection.

Orchid Moss or seed starting mix? Either way, while I'm sure potting in anything not APL made him unpopular, that's quite the logical leap to say it killed him.

I do appreciate the concern.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Okay, this is all great to know! So you do not add any other substrates to the Sphagnum moss? I have perlite, pumice, and vermiculite. Can I place the trays in the sun, perhaps with the clear lid and ventilated? (even with heat pad and thermostat, if so, at what temps?) This is kind of my only project for the time being, so I want to create ideal conditions.

Thank you again!

Oh I nearly forgot, would you suggest a source for a high quality Sphagnum moss, either in your former area (mine haha), or online?

After a number of years propagating many cuttings and seeds, much to my better half’s dismay, I have learned a couple things.

In the propagation world, everyone has their favorite media. Just like bonsai medias.

When one is first starting off it is best choose a sterile, decent quality media to start with and stick with it. One wants to cut down the number of variables from the gitgo. Experiment with medias once you get experience and enough results to know what’s going on.

Preferred propagation mixes can vary by species. The key is to learn the characteristics of the media and of the seeds/cuttings you choose to propagate. That can take some time and experimentation. Once a practitioner learns how to handle a certain media and the specific seeds/cuttings they are working with the success rate gets much higher.

The best references I’ve found for propagating seeds is

The Reference Manual of Woody Plant Propagation. 2nd Ed Dirr and Heuser

The USFS’s Woody Plant Seed Manual

Cheers
DSD sends

PS: Pretty sure @Bonsai Nut is using New Zealand Sphagnum Moss. This is the same product many others here, including myself, use.

 

[777thSunRay]

Sphagnum moss...

View attachment 442123

View attachment 442124

Run it through bonsai soil mesh to break it into smaller pieces. Great seed starting medium.

Thank you again for this recommendation. I am a bit unclear about exactly what a Bonsai mesh is (I googled it, how fine a mesh do I use?) and how you use it to break the moss into smaller pieces. Is there a particular item/brand I should look for, and do you grind it through the mesh, something along those lines? And how small should the pieces be? Please elucidate!

 

[777thSunRay]

Sphagnum moss...

View attachment 442123

View attachment 442124

Run it through bonsai soil mesh to break it into smaller pieces. Great seed starting medium.

Just bumping this, hope that's okay. Another question too...

Thank you again for this recommendation. I am a bit unclear about exactly what a Bonsai mesh is (I googled it, how fine a mesh do I use?) and how you use it to break the moss into smaller pieces. Is there a particular item/brand I should look for, and do you grind it through the mesh, something along those lines? And how small should the pieces be? Please elucidate!

So when starting tree seeds, do I keep the medium very wet at all times? Or should I allow to dry at all between waterings, and if so to what degree do I allow it to dry? Could this depend upon the species?

 

[berzerkules]

I started a couple fists full of siberian elm seeds, trash and random organic debris from the side of the road up against the curb in nothing but sphagnum moss I collected from muskeg bog. I do shred the moss. It sucks, my technique leaves much to be desired. I grab a huge fist full of moss and use the bottom of the milk crate like a cheese grater. Use a mask if you shed a bunch, you don't want to be breathing that stuff.

Anyways, it seems to be working. I just set that tray in another tray of water for a couple minutes every few days when the tray starts getting light.

If I'm planting seeds from the curb in moss from the woods the moss from the store should work great.

 

[Srt8madness]

Just bumping this, hope that's okay. Another question too...

Thank you again for this recommendation. I am a bit unclear about exactly what a Bonsai mesh is (I googled it, how fine a mesh do I use?) and how you use it to break the moss into smaller pieces. Is there a particular item/brand I should look for, and do you grind it through the mesh, something along those lines? And how small should the pieces be? Please elucidate!

So when starting tree seeds, do I keep the medium very wet at all times? Or should I allow to dry at all between waterings, and if so to what degree do I allow it to dry? Could this depend upon the species?

Below is a great resource for starting seeds. Don't make it more complicated than it has to be. If shredding spaghnum is impractical, just use seeds starting mix. If you're an environut, use perlite. You can even shred sphagnum by hand and mix with perlite. Those options can give a larger margin of error when watering over straight sphagnum, which can dry quickly, and even unevenly (i.e. the top layer exposed to heat dries while the bottom stays wet).

Remember the KISS principle

Extended season starting trees indoors

Got loads of seeds.Some are still in the post. European Hornbeam,Field Maple,Japanese And Trident Maple,Zelkova.Also a few 1gallon Coreana Hornbeams to try cuttings. I will get the Zelkova started about 6 months early.Will see with the rest as they need warm stratification.Some will be sewn...

www.bonsainut.com