Itioigawa Shimpaku

tmmason10

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Bad pic, but I was doing my daily watering with my 18-month old. This one has really grown a lot this year, and it echoes Robs worry about keeping the foliage in perspective with the smaller trunk. I think there are a few branches to remove next year, and the small pads formed again like was performed this year.
 

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Vance Wood

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Bad pic, but I was doing my daily watering with my 18-month old. This one has really grown a lot this year, and it echoes Robs worry about keeping the foliage in perspective with the smaller trunk. I think there are a few branches to remove next year, and the small pads formed again like was performed this year.

You,re flirting with disaster here. The crown of your tree is so over-powering that you cannot even see the branching. Remember that the quality and nature of a bonsai is determined by its branching. Without that you have nothing but a little bush. There is nothing wrong with a little bush but that is an entirely different story. You need to open this puppy up so that the branching is exposed so that you can start determining where the foliage pads need to be.
 

KennedyMarx

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Looks like you've got care down for this one. It looks very happy. What kind of fertilizer regimen are you using? The soil is akadama, pumice, and lava? I have an Itoigawa that I plopped into a pond basket this spring. It hasn't done much growth wise. I used akadama, pumice, lava, and turface in equal amounts. Maybe the particle sizes were too small.
 

tmmason10

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You,re flirting with disaster here. The crown of your tree is so over-powering that you cannot even see the branching. Remember that the quality and nature of a bonsai is determined by its branching. Without that you have nothing but a little bush. There is nothing wrong with a little bush but that is an entirely different story. You need to open this puppy up so that the branching is exposed so that you can start determining where the foliage pads need to be.

I agree with your input Vance. The tree got really bushy but it did lose a lot of foliage this spring so I wanted to make sure I didn't trim much this season. Next spring I think I'll remove a lot more. I think this will need to be kept trim going forward as it gets out of proportion fast.
 

tmmason10

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Looks like you've got care down for this one. It looks very happy. What kind of fertilizer regimen are you using? The soil is akadama, pumice, and lava? I have an Itoigawa that I plopped into a pond basket this spring. It hasn't done much growth wise. I used akadama, pumice, lava, and turface in equal amounts. Maybe the particle sizes were too small.

I don't claim to be any horticultural expert, but I'll break down what I've done. First, last spring I bare rooted it because it had mucky old soil and I think it stayed too soggy. Switching to New England Bonsai Premium soil ( boons mix) did the trick for drainage and being healthy. I haven't even fertilized with liquid fert much this year. Just the 10-10-10 I keep throwing on top of the soil. I do water it thoroughly it doesn't seem to mind being doused with water now that it drains well.
 
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Tom,
you've done the right thing. Letting itoigawa to get 'bushy' with numerous runners allows it to maximize it's 'metabolism' and form a predominance of mature scale foliage. Next spring will be time to style it. You're on the right track. Feed well this fall as also.
john
 

tmmason10

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Tom,
you've done the right thing. Letting itoigawa to get 'bushy' with numerous runners allows it to maximize it's 'metabolism' and form a predominance of mature scale foliage. Next spring will be time to style it. You're on the right track. Feed well this fall as also.
john

Thanks John, looking forward to the next few years working with this one.
 

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Tom,
you've done the right thing. Letting itoigawa to get 'bushy' with numerous runners allows it to maximize it's 'metabolism' and form a predominance of mature scale foliage. Next spring will be time to style it. You're on the right track. Feed well this fall as also.
john

Ah,, sounds interesting but what's it mean. Can you dumb it down for me please? Thanks!
 
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Shimpaku itoigawa have a tendency to sprout juvenile (needle type) foliage when weak. Over pruning, over feeding, over watering, heavy root pruning, etc can throw the tree out of balance and its reaction is to sprout this juvenile foliage. Allowing the tree to grow a lot of foliage can restore the balance and it will revert back to mature, scale like foliage. When you see 'runners' - extensions of foliage - you are seeing a happy tree.
 

Vance Wood

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Shimpaku itoigawa have a tendency to sprout juvenile (needle type) foliage when weak. Over pruning, over feeding, over watering, heavy root pruning, etc can throw the tree out of balance and its reaction is to sprout this juvenile foliage. Allowing the tree to grow a lot of foliage can restore the balance and it will revert back to mature, scale like foliage. When you see 'runners' - extensions of foliage - you are seeing a happy tree.

Yes-------but what happens when you start trying to cut the tree back into some sort of bonsai profile/shape/form?
 
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Hi Vance,
Once the tree is healthy, you can trim back pretty good to style. I've often cut back/styled and left a few runners - so basically style it a bit gradually. I remember having a nice itoigawa with good foliage that I took to a workshop 10+ years ago with a japanese shohin professional who styled it BUT it was late in the season and it reverted back to juvenile foliage. I had to wait another 3+ years to get the foliage back to scale type. Now I do the styling earlier in the season (here in the Northeast), wait for it to fill in a bit before repotting (they don't need to be repotted that much - even shohin). It's kind of a delicate balance. Kishu shimpaku is much more forgiving, does not revert to needle foliage much but not as small for shohin. I like working with both.
 

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John, I would or could I assume this applies to most all common Junis? I keep cutting my runners back to create pads and back budding because I thought I read it on one of the threads here.
 

Vance Wood

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John, I would or could I assume this applies to most all common Junis? I keep cutting my runners back to create pads and back budding because I thought I read it on one of the threads here.

You may have some trouble getting some good information about what to do here. A lot of people have become confused about the methods involved, and others are hesitant to tell you what they do because they don't want to face the firestorm from two opposing groups of unfriendly bonsaiists.
 
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Vin. Good question and why I hesitate to post much on these groups. I primarily prefer to work with students in person (groups or individually). It's just my personal preference. There is SO much to say and I don't have the time or patience to type a lengthy explanation that makes sense AND covers all the 'if, ands, and buts' that come up.
So to try and clarify: I am only talking about Juniperus chinensis itoigawa. I would not paint a broad brush to include all the various species of juniper.
Regarding your question on trimming runners. Yes, you do that - once you get the plant to a healthy state. The runners are a sign that it is growing strong and obtaining a healthy state. After this is achieved, when you are to start styling, refining, etc. you can then cut these back to create pads, depth, etc. I was only talking about runners at the stage of creating a healthy state for the tree. I hope this makes better sense.
 
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october

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John, I would or could I assume this applies to most all common Junis? I keep cutting my runners back to create pads and back budding because I thought I read it on one of the threads here.

Hi Vin..Pads are primarily created through interior structure. After you have the branches in place within the pad, then it is mostly about maintenance. If you are creating pads by solely cutting or pinching the outside or silhouette of the pad, then that section is on borrowed time. Meaning, you will have to prune more in one section or do uneven amounts of pruning. In time, this can weaken the section and even kill it.

Here are 2 virts. The first one is the overhead view of a well structured branch. If you were looking straight down, you should see something similar to this. However, when you are looking at it from the front, you only see a pad as shown in virt 2. Sometimes you can have more than one pad on a branch. Having a couple of pads coming off of one branch sometimes makes for a better and older image. It all depends on the tree.

Rob
 

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Vin

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Lot's of good information in just a few sentences. My apologies to Tom if his thread went awry. Hopefully, he benefited from the information as well.
 

tmmason10

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Lot's of good information in just a few sentences. My apologies to Tom if his thread went awry. Hopefully, he benefited from the information as well.

Of course, any discussion is welcome on my threads. I must say I am lucky to be able to work with John and Rob personally. They each have guided me through a styling on this very tree.
 

tmmason10

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Just updating the thread with the picture for the end of this year. I removed the wire in preparation for work next spring. The branches have set pretty well. Also including a probable branch reduction next year.
 

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