Itoigawa Juniper Tips?

dlquick

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I recently purchased this Itoigawa Shimpaku from Brent @ EvergreenGardenWorks.com. I plan to buy several more because these so far have been my favorite, and are the most attractive trees (opinion) once they're older, and trained properly. This one appears to be roughly 1-1/2 to 2yrs old, grown from a cutting, and has mostly "juvenile?" foliage. It is yellowing/browning on the inside of the branches, where external growth is vigorous and healthy. It arrived like this, and I'm slightly worried.. There is also some chunky white fertilizer (turns to dust when crushed between fingers) that is spread throughout the medium. Not sure if that much is harming the tree? I know I should begin wiring at this age/growth, but should I prune at all, or let it grow? Of course the trunk is a little on the thin side (1/4"), and would prefer 1-1/2" thick before placing in a bonsai pot. It is in a bark type medium that drains pretty well.
Can I get some tips for a beginner? I'm also not convinced this is 100% Itoigawa. Most others I've seen don't have as much juvenile foliage. I'm assuming older trees would have mostly mature foliage.

image0.jpeg
 

leatherback

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This one is perfectly happy. YEllowing is normal, as the branches mathure, the needles / scale are dropped, after turning yellow. This happens in one big push at a time, so you may be shocked and worried the first time you see it.

Fertilize well. Lost of sun. Fertilize. Let it grow. Wiring now means you can still get some movement in the lowest part of the trunk.
 

Farwest

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There is also some chunky white fertilizer (turns to dust when crushed between fingers) that is spread throughout the medium. Not sure if that much is harming the tree?
It appears to be some coarse perlite. It’s a widely used growing media and once you get the watering down you should be set.
 

dlquick

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It appears to be some coarse perlite. It’s a widely used growing media and once you get the watering down you should be set.
Is it normal for perlite to turn to dust when squeezed? I thought it might be fertilizer or something.
 

bwaynef

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Not that he's infallible, but if Brent says its itoigawa, ...its itoigawa. (Also, it is behaving like itoigawa ...and looks like itoigawa.)
 

leatherback

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Not that he's infallible, but if Brent says its itoigawa, ...its itoigawa. (Also, it is behaving like itoigawa ...and looks like itoigawa.)
yeah. I was also wondering why there is doubt. Looks exactly like my 2 y.o. ittoigawa cuttings
 

dlquick

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Not that he's infallible, but if Brent says its itoigawa, ...its itoigawa. (Also, it is behaving like itoigawa ...and looks like itoigawa.
I don't mean to insult Brent by any means. I just see photos all the time of people identifying certain trees as Itoigawa, and they look absolutely nothing like my tree. This is a photo below where several people identified this as Itoigawa. I guess I just want to be sure, and research the correct species.

shimpaku_20181013_3.jpg
 

leatherback

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You have to keep in mind that age, care and weather influence growth patterns. You have a very young plant, which grows in this manner. See the tree below. One just after initial styling, with lanky spars growth, and a few years later as the tree has settled in

20200711-R14A3866-272.jpgJCI01-1.jpg
 

dlquick

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Brent uses bark and perlite. 100% that’s an Itoigawa. Wire it up and put some nasty curves and bends into that little whip, and stick it in the ground for a few years to fatten up.
Thanks Brian! Could I substitute the ‘ground grow’ by just repotting in a larger pot, and get the same results?
 

n8

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Thanks Brian! Could I substitute the ‘ground grow’ by just repotting in a larger pot, and get the same results?

Brent usually includes instructions on whether or not you should up-pot immediately not. I would guess not at this time of year. I reckon you should twist that up, let the branches set and then repot later if you do not have a ground space available.
 

Brian Van Fleet

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Thanks Brian! Could I substitute the ‘ground grow’ by just repotting in a larger pot, and get the same results?
The results would be the same, but the timeline would be much longer.
I’ll try to get some photos later of a cutting made from one of Brent’s Itoigawas about 10 years ago that has been in the ground for 7-8 years. It’s about 6 feet wide, and the trunk is around 3.5”. Once they have a lot of foliage, they make some wood, but it takes a while to get there. Much longer in a container.

Also, wiring movement in the trunk, which is critical, slows down the tree for a while. So, count on year 1 being one to establish trunk movement, and roots in the ground (or large pot), year 2 to start really putting on foliage, and year 3 to start to see the trunk grow.
 

Wires_Guy_wires

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The results would be the same, but the timeline would be much longer.
I’ll try to get some photos later of a cutting made from one of Brent’s Itoigawas about 10 years ago that has been in the ground for 7-8 years. It’s about 6 feet wide, and the trunk is around 3.5”. Once they have a lot of foliage, they make some wood, but it takes a while to get there. Much longer in a container.

Also, wiring movement in the trunk, which is critical, slows down the tree for a while. So, count on year 1 being one to establish trunk movement, and roots in the ground (or large pot), year 2 to start really putting on foliage, and year 3 to start to see the trunk grow.
I disagree on the timeline Brian.
I feel like I can tweak conditions in a pot way better than in the ground. The growth output I'm getting in a large pot is pretty awesome. But it takes more time and effort compared to ground growing for sure.
 

Brian Van Fleet

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I disagree on the timeline Brian.
I feel like I can tweak conditions in a pot way better than in the ground. The growth output I'm getting in a large pot is pretty awesome. But it takes more time and effort compared to ground growing for sure.
Doesn’t read like you’re disagreeing at all. But I’d be curious to see your results.
 

Wires_Guy_wires

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@Brian Van Fleet
Screenshot_20210809_215649_com.android.gallery3d.jpg
Whips like this
To rough material like below
Screenshot_20210809_215707_com.android.gallery3d.jpg
In about 1 year, while trimming them twice a year for cuttings and to keep the foliage close to the trunk. They've taken off now, 5-6 months later, and I had to dig some 2mm wire out of the trunk.
Edit: these pics were taken in spring.

I mean it takes human time and effort. I wouldn't have to water them very often if they were in the ground. I can play with sunlight exposure, turn them around and make sure all sides get a decent amount of growth. I do see advantages to large pots with organic soil.
 

dlquick

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The results would be the same, but the timeline would be much longer.
I’ll try to get some photos later of a cutting made from one of Brent’s Itoigawas about 10 years ago that has been in the ground for 7-8 years. It’s about 6 feet wide, and the trunk is around 3.5”. Once they have a lot of foliage, they make some wood, but it takes a while to get there. Much longer in a container.

Also, wiring movement in the trunk, which is critical, slows down the tree for a while. So, count on year 1 being one to establish trunk movement, and roots in the ground (or large pot), year 2 to start really putting on foliage, and year 3 to start to see the trunk grow.
Thanks again Brian. Those photos would be incredible to see if you could post them. That would at least help me come to a decision. I have some 3mm on the trunk now where I've began to implement the 'S Shape' for informal upright. Should I let this grow for a year before any pruning? It also bothers me a bit that their aren't really any lower branches to develop. Any way to get lower branches to bud in?
 

dlquick

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In about 1 year, while trimming them twice a year for cuttings and to keep the foliage close to the trunk. They've taken off now, 5-6 months later, and I had to dig some 2mm wire out of the trunk.
Edit: these pics were taken in spring.

I mean it takes human time and effort. I wouldn't have to water them very often if they were in the ground. I can play with sunlight exposure, turn them around and make sure all sides get a decent amount of growth. I do see advantages to large pots with organic soil.
Thanks for the photos! It's amazing to see that kind of caliper after 1-1/2 yrs. This gives me something to look forward to. Especially seeing most of the juvenile foliage lost. They look fantastic with mature foliage. Any tips on potting medium? I've thought about repotting in a larger pot early next spring, with a lava, pumice, akadama (1:1:1) base, and some type of compost on top. Just not sure what to use. Thanks again!!
 

Brian Van Fleet

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Thanks again Brian. Those photos would be incredible to see if you could post them. That would at least help me come to a decision. I have some 3mm on the trunk now where I've began to implement the 'S Shape' for informal upright. Should I let this grow for a year before any pruning? It also bothers me a bit that their aren't really any lower branches to develop. Any way to get lower branches to bud in?
Here you go. This one is around 10 years old from a cutting, after 7-8 years in the ground. It has been dug up twice over those years for pruning,wiring, and to head back the roots just a little. THe yardstick is closer to the camera, so it’s a bit deceiving; the trunk is pushing 4”, and the yardstick laying across the top in the full tree shot. Closer up, you can see how much smaller the new wired trunk section is compared to those shoots left to run wild.
D99D748C-16EB-4E8D-8E1F-FC3156C656C3.jpeg622C1B46-82CF-4D75-B4BC-EF4B046D5C69.jpeg9C812B22-D720-4A27-897F-37EA2A2DE473.jpeg

On yours, just wire some movement into it and get it growing, no pruning. It will back bud and in a couple years you won’t even recognize it.
 
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