Itoigawa/Kishu in the ground for development in tropical climate

[Baku1875]

Would these varieties thrive in the ground, in south florida?

I have five 10-16 year old pasrons junipers in the ground and was considering grafting kishu or itoigawa to have denser, more interesting foliage to work with. I was also considering collecting several of each and attempting to grow them in the ground (buying nursery can stage 2-3y shimpaku) with pond basket so I can remove them and train them to become bonsai later.

In my environment (lots of heat, high humidity, frequent rain in summer, drier heat in the autumn with 80 degree days persisting until november, and a late winter- early spring dry heat period (my busiest for active watering), would these varieties survive in the ground?

Will be posting more detailed photos of my in ground parsons junipers tomorrow around noon so you guys can comment on whether or not it is worth it to graft japanese varieties onto it.

 

[Shibui]

80 degrees is no problem for any Chinensis variety. Temps go well above 40C down here and they still thrive.
I can't vouch for summer humidity as it is generally low during our summer but I suspect that humidity won't be a problem because mine seem to be happier when they get more water during our summer. Humidity in the nursery here is probably higher due to the amount of water used and subsequent wet ground.
The only catch could be what soil type you have. Free draining soils should be Ok but not sure about heavier clay soils.
Note that Chinensis junipers take quite a while to show good growth after planting in the ground here. Typically no noticeable growth in the first summer but by the second year they start to take off and grow better. Still takes me 5-10 years to get good trunks, even planted in the ground.
Grafting is an excellent technique to give better foliage when you have good trunks with less desirable type foliage. Allow 4-6 years or longer to develop good branching though.

 

[sorce]

I figure the foliage only has to take the temperature extremes, which seems fine.

It's the rootstock that determines more it's ability to live through the climate, and of course, the ground.

Bring something out to get good trunk pics, maybe something and someone!

Sorce

 

[Baku1875]

Alright here they are

This is the smallest (parsons?) it goes at an angle and has a primary branch that goes up, then it has the main line move out into a fork. This is one that I am considering removing from the ground at some point after I graft some shimpaku varieties to it.



Second one.... I cleaned up some of the upper branches as it was shading out the foliage below, the trunk is pretty beefy ( at least a few inches thick) and has interesting ramification. That long branch that hooks to the right (to that air layer I have on a small branch) has some very interesting movement, I am considering air layering the whole thing off as it has gone so far from the main trunk and foliage. That right branch used to be on the ground, I bungee corded it using a palm tree that is a few feet from the trunks.




This is the top of the right branch of tree 2, my air layer experiment on that little side branch (from first week of may, waiting until mid winter to see if it roots), and it has an interesting twist at the end. I think that this would make a really nice bonsai if i air layered the whole branch off after grafting shimpaku varieties to it, let me know what you guys think about that.



This is a side view of the biggest trunk, you can see the base on the right side of the mulch. I have 3 bungee cords on it to get it bending, I pruned and started bending it back in March, it hasnt shown signs of poor health, my goal is to spread out those main branches so they back bud a bit more (plenty of buds right now) and get some of that westerly sun.

It would probably make a reallly nice beefy bonsai but removing it from the ground would take more knowledge and expertise on my part.

 

[Baku1875]

Another angle of tree 3, you can see im trying to let some sunlight in between those middle branches

 

[Baku1875]

These trees were ground crawlers before march......

tree 3 from another angle. There's a few awkward thin long branches but I am leaving them on in case they back bud, and I want to get as much growth/strength/health this summer out of the tree as I bend it. The bungee cord tension, and the angle has progressively increased since March, I just unhook it from my anchor palm tree (off to the left) and raise it higher if I feel that the bungee cord has low tension/slack on it. The lower bungee is to apply angular pressure closer to the base, it will probably take a lot longer to get more motion out of it, but it is definitely responding.

When applying more tension or adjusting the bungees, I have tried to do it after a rain storm or after a thorough watering so the trunk doesnt snap. I was working that branch on the right (if you can see the black duct tape) and i heard it crackle a bit so i taped it tight and removed the bungee (back in march) the foliage is still alive and growing so i guess it will be ok.

The goal is to make these look like nice 'in ground' bonsais, possibly graft Japanese varieties with tighter foliage onto them, and if the prospects are good, air layer bigger branches and/or remove entire tree from the ground and get it into a large pot or growing box, then nursery pot, then trainer, then bonsai, etc..

 

[Baku1875]

80 degrees is no problem for any Chinensis variety. Temps go well above 40C down here and they still thrive.
I can't vouch for summer humidity as it is generally low during our summer but I suspect that humidity won't be a problem because mine seem to be happier when they get more water during our summer. Humidity in the nursery here is probably higher due to the amount of water used and subsequent wet ground.
The only catch could be what soil type you have. Free draining soils should be Ok but not sure about heavier clay soils.
Note that Chinensis junipers take quite a while to show good growth after planting in the ground here. Typically no noticeable growth in the first summer but by the second year they start to take off and grow better. Still takes me 5-10 years to get good trunks, even planted in the ground.
Grafting is an excellent technique to give better foliage when you have good trunks with less desirable type foliage. Allow 4-6 years or longer to develop good branching though.

The trees are on an elevated bed, and they appear to drain well. I sifted the white gravel after I gave them a thorough pruning in March, and added some bark mulch. When I water them and when it rains, you can see the flow from the elevated bed over the coral rocks around the perimeter, they have been growing in the ground for at least 8-12 years, I dont remember exactly when I planted them.

 

[nuttiest]

View attachment 441060
These trees were ground crawlers before march......

they still are

 

[Shibui]

J. chinensis varieties should graft onto the parsons juniper no problem. It may take a few tries to get good at it but I have not seen any talk that any species are incompatible.
Whether it is worth the time and effort depends on the stock you are grafting onto and how hard larger J. chinensis are to get hold of. I'd only bother if the trunks are really good but others will see it quite different. Chinensis foliage is definitely much better to work with as bonsai than the more open foliage and growth pattern of many other species. I have a couple of trunks that have been grafted to shimpaku foliage.

I think chinensis vars should grow very well in your raised beds. Sounds like the drainage is excellent and the climate sounds good for them.

 

[Baku1875]

J. chinensis varieties should graft onto the parsons juniper no problem. It may take a few tries to get good at it but I have not seen any talk that any species are incompatible.
Whether it is worth the time and effort depends on the stock you are grafting onto and how hard larger J. chinensis are to get hold of. I'd only bother if the trunks are really good but others will see it quite different. Chinensis foliage is definitely much better to work with as bonsai than the more open foliage and growth pattern of many other species. I have a couple of trunks that have been grafted to shimpaku foliage.

I think chinensis vars should grow very well in your raised beds. Sounds like the drainage is excellent and the climate sounds good for them.

I really appreciate the input.

One of the trunks has potential IMO (tree #3 with the bungee cords), but it will take years. Since these were just cheap 'ground cover' plants, it wouldnt be a shame if anything went wrong. I will start with a few grafts on that one then and see where it goes.

 

[nuttiest]

I would save one out to try cutting back rather than grafting, and wire a new shoot for the apex, nothing going to keep side branches up when they get too heavy (well, wire) If it is a ground hugger, the stock will still make nice bonsai.

 

[Baku1875]

This is the trunk of the bigger one, 7.8 inch circumference, ~2.48 inch diameter.

Might be worth taking out of the ground in a few years if I can develop the right ramification/pad development/taper

 

[nuttiest]

Yes, do you have one with a low branch you can keep and jin the leader?

 

[Baku1875]

yea, even that big one has a staggered junction of 4 branches off the main trunk, two are clearly bigger than the rest (of the two that I am bending, there is a smaller branch that is the lowest (a sort of pinky finger).

The smallest one has the lowest primary branch with some interesting movement, and the leader is a very long fork. So you would suggest that I develop the ramification on the lowest primary/get pads going over the course of (probably a few years at least), and jin the long fork leader?

 

[Baku1875]

This photo was from 3 weeks ago, but you get the idea, there's that lower branch that is trying to hug the ground, another long one that shoots laterally to the other side, and two going vertically. Hmm now that you mentioned that, it would make a nice jin feature...like antlers

 

[nuttiest]

and this one has super taper

 

[Baku1875]

so from here, I would project that my objective for the next two years on this tree would be-

1) work on ramification/pad development on the lower branches, and position them to get the tree in balance. Choosing a front and working the tree towards suiting that angle.

2) maybe slap some grafts once I have secondary ramification in order

3) bend the apex main leaders a bit more to create interest and good material for the jin
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________
4)dig it up and put it in a large pot or wooden box (2-3 years from now)

5)jin the apex/main line

6)downsize/repot/ramification/refinement cycle every 1-2 years

Based on this timeline, I would be looking at a 7-10 year investment before it ends up in a bonsai pot. Is that a decent ballpark?

 

[nuttiest]

I think maybe a broadleaf you might want to think that far ahead, but Juniper come from the nursery 3-gallon ready to style without much forethought. you can safely take off 1/3 of length long branches and top to start compacting, or strip bark and needles on some branches. There was a great example of that on the shohin tree thread today.

 

[Baku1875]

hmm so you think I would be able to get good branch development/pad development in ground (wiring, guy wiring, pruning), get the tree out of the ground when it's ready, repot in a trainer pot in less than 2-3 years?

I think maybe a broadleaf you might want to think that far ahead, but Juniper come from the nursery 3-gallon ready to style without much forethought. you can safely take off 1/3 of length long branches and top to start compacting, or strip bark and needles on some branches. There was a great example of that on the shohin tree thread today.

What I consider is health and growth as well. I got bit hard by the bonsai bug around march of this year, before that I was very casual, so i now look for items with potential to create plants of interest.

Desirable ramification can take time to sort out, also trying not to kill the tree. Those are my two concerns. I would rather get a bunch more growth and foliage uninterrupted then do some training, than train it so hard that it goes into dormancy or dies. But perhaps this is very much variety specific.