It's still time to defoliate deciduous

[AlainK]

... thought it's becoming a bit late, but it depends on the climate where you live. Here, it can usually be done till the end of June.

What's the point? It's been discussed in various threads here, but basically, it's because the second flush gives smaller leaves. It's also a way to let more light into the structure, so help some species to backbud, and refine a tree which is more or less in its final stages.

Take for instance this small Acer palmatum 'Phoenix': the interest is also because the new shoots display the red colour which is a feature of this cultivar.





I still need to remove the moss (in fact, that's Sagina, it has long roots that can choke the invade the pot if you let it develop), put more soil (Akadama), and some sphagnum moss on top (se the link in an another thread : https://peterteabonsai.wordpress.com/2012/06/12/the-trident-maple-project-and-summer-maple-work/ ).

I have a few other trees that I will defoliate tomorrow or this weekend, among them an ash (Fraxinus excelsior) because that's the only way to get leaves small enough for a bonsaï, and a Nashi.

The latter (Pyrus pyrifolia, from seeds of one I have in my garden) has orange spots on the leaves, so it's a good opportunity to get rid of this fungus that will affect other trees (Juniper in particular) if I don't do anything. I'll treat it with a sulfur-based fungicide and hope to have nice leaves in autumn. It's still very small, but the colours are great in autumn and it's not very common as a bonsai.

But one day...

 

[BobbyLane]

defoliation after leaves harden off, works extremely well on Beech. Beech are notorious for long branches with most of the growth at the tips. defoliation often rectifies this, inducing buds closer to the trunk to open. i did my last partial defoliation on a Beech today. will let them grow now.

 

[Adamantium]

I'm so nervous to do this. I'm worried the leaves just won't grow back and I'll be left with a dead tree ?

I just repotted all my trees. Is it a bad idea to do both that, and defoliate, in one year?

 

[rockm]

I'm so nervous to do this. I'm worried the leaves just won't grow back and I'll be left with a dead tree ?

I just repotted all my trees. Is it a bad idea to do both that, and defoliate, in one year?

Yes. An extremely bad idea.

 

[AlainK]

defoliation after leaves harden off, works extremely well on Beech. Beech are notorious for long branches with most of the growth at the tips. defoliation often rectifies this, inducing buds closer to the trunk to open. i did my last partial defoliation on a Beech today. will let them grow now.

We can sometimes definitely be on the same wavelength Bobby.

Here is the Fagus sylvatica I had planned to defoliate today, or in the coming days:



It looks very awkward, but wait until I strip him off... And it gets new leaves.

I have another one that was on the (cement) stairs down to the backyard, getting full sun from 3:30 till night.

It was so hot for two weeks (25-30°), and I didn't pay attention to it. It was close to the wall, even more heat stored, and one morning, I found the leaves were dry, crispy, with just some green at the base ofsome of the leaves. So I removed all the leaves (plucked them out)) and put it in the shade : at least some of them have green buds swelling, I really hope it(ll make it through...

Here it was before budbreak, didn't have the heart to take pictures when he was on the razor's edge:

 

[Adamantium]

Yes. An extremely bad idea.

Super good to know. Thank you kindly.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I prefer a partial defoliation most of the time. I only do complete defoliation in a tree I am certain has "excessive" vigor. If a tree has weak health, do nothing. If a tree has just average health I only partially defoliate.

 

[BobbyLane]

i wouldnt say its ideal but ive done both, re pot and partial defoliate, more than once this year already. on beeches, which i pick up cheap from hedging stock. the plants were vigorous before, with only a little root removed during re potting, but i know a trees limits, that comes with experimenting. this beech was chopped down from a healthy taller tree and re potted a couple weeks ago, while it was already in leaf...

20180531_132526 by Bobby Lane, on Flickr

healthy root system
20180531_165805 by Bobby Lane, on Flickr
20180531_172619 by Bobby Lane, on Flickr

partial defoliation a few days after re potting while it was in leaf
20180607_094746 by Bobby Lane, on Flickr

two weeks on, ill remove the dying leaves tomorrow, you see what sometimes happens when you re pot a tree in leaf is there is a chance you might of cut some feeder roots that were feeding those leaves, but in my experience it doesnt matter on a healthy tree, here you can see already new buds getting ready to open, basically i could of did a full defoliation and it still would of responded and its been in full sun the whole time, no shady business...
20180615_221023 by Bobby Lane, on Flickr

this is the base of the branch where dormant nodes have also been activated...
20180615_220958 by Bobby Lane, on Flickr

as a result of chopping a vigorous beech, these dormant buds are also opening up around the chop point and there is another bursting at the base
20180615_221111 by Bobby Lane, on Flickr

i have a lot of trees and ive also killed a few beech trees, so im beginning to know what they can take, but ive done this on hornbeams too, im sure most will say its too much in one go, but like i said, i know this trees limits. so i think re repotting and partial defoliating, it depends on how healthy the tree is and how much root was removed, my trees are all mostly in deep training pots with big root systems.

 

[Aeast]

Can this practice be done to American beech as well? Assuming it's healthy of course.

 

[BobbyLane]

ive read here that american beech can be even more finnicky than the european. in regards to defoliation, if you have a few bits to play around with you can experiment.

i did it on this tree too and also on a recently posted sumo beech

https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/elegant-beech.33858/

ive had two flushes out of the above, maybe three as one vigorous branch was defoliated 3 times to allow weaker areas to catch up

 

[sorce]

I'm so nervous to do this. I'm worried the leaves just won't grow back and I'll be left with a dead tree ?

I just repotted all my trees. Is it a bad idea to do both that, and defoliate, in one year?

Can't mindlessly like RockM's good answer...

If you mean "just" like yesterday....
And repotted my "trees"..as in leafed out deciduous....

I would have to recommend defoiloating them in the same year....like now...or the tree may die.

But that would be the only instance....and you kinda want to prevent it in the first place.

It is good advice to "let a new-to-you tree grow a year or 2 so you can learn it."

After a while...you WILL know what buds look like...when they WILL pop and grow.

But remember....defoliation IS DIFFERENT from a removal of growing tips.
It doesn't send hormonal signals the same as removing growing tips.

They are both essentially stress responses..
But defoliation is not as predictable as cutting back.

When cut back...depending on species of healthy tree...it knows exactly what to do...active the next 1-x buds back, and it still has leaves and energy to do so.

When defoliated...
The tree is like WTF!
And is left to make decisions on its own.
If the healthiest outer growing tips aren't cut back, it may be the only place it grows again. In fact it's likely.

But then you will still get light to the interior...and your interior buds will still get light and therefore...more readiness to work.

But you may not be able to cut back to them till next year...or x. "It depends."

This could be an appropriate timeline for some material.
Could be an appropriate timeline for one branch on a tree...
Could be the worst thing you ever did!

After letting your tree grow and observing it....
You will know.

For instance....

I was amazed the fist year I grew branches on branches...
It took about 4-5 years! (Too much cutting)

But those branches on the branches are what defoliation creates....and this happens to healthy trees without defoliation.

That is exactly what creates the need for defoliation in the first place....those first leaves are always bigger....

So .....

Defoliate without Defoliating.

Get the tree healthy enough to grow branches on branches (if possible..not for one flush material.)
And just remove the big old leaves from the nodes where they grew.

You don't have to be nervous.

Be educated!

When in doubt...don't defoliate!

Sorce

 

[Adamantium]

Can't mindlessly like RockM's good answer...

If you mean "just" like yesterday....
And repotted my "trees"..as in leafed out deciduous....

I would have to recommend defoiloating them in the same year....like now...or the tree may die.

But that would be the only instance....and you kinda want to prevent it in the first place.

It is good advice to "let a new-to-you tree grow a year or 2 so you can learn it."

After a while...you WILL know what buds look like...when they WILL pop and grow.

But remember....defoliation IS DIFFERENT from a removal of growing tips.
It doesn't send hormonal signals the same as removing growing tips.

They are both essentially stress responses..
But defoliation is not as predictable as cutting back.

When cut back...depending on species of healthy tree...it knows exactly what to do...active the next 1-x buds back, and it still has leaves and energy to do so.

When defoliated...
The tree is like WTF!
And is left to make decisions on its own.
If the healthiest outer growing tips aren't cut back, it may be the only place it grows again. In fact it's likely.

But then you will still get light to the interior...and your interior buds will still get light and therefore...more readiness to work.

But you may not be able to cut back to them till next year...or x. "It depends."

This could be an appropriate timeline for some material.
Could be an appropriate timeline for one branch on a tree...
Could be the worst thing you ever did!

After letting your tree grow and observing it....
You will know.

For instance....

I was amazed the fist year I grew branches on branches...
It took about 4-5 years! (Too much cutting)

But those branches on the branches are what defoliation creates....and this happens to healthy trees without defoliation.

That is exactly what creates the need for defoliation in the first place....those first leaves are always bigger....

So .....

Defoliate without Defoliating.

Get the tree healthy enough to grow branches on branches (if possible..not for one flush material.)
And just remove the big old leaves from the nodes where they grew.

You don't have to be nervous.

Be educated!

When in doubt...don't defoliate!

Sorce

Very informative, as usual. Thanks, sorce. I repotted just before bud burst, as is recommended. These are new to me Trident Maples, so I'll leave them be for this, and maybe next year to learn how they grow.

I'm really tempted to prune back these long branches, though. It's becoming a bit unwieldy on my tiny fire escape. I'll resist the urge, though. That said, do you think it would be safe to snip them back after leaf drop for easier winter storage?

And I may very partially defoliate in the next few days to get more light in to the center.

 

[sorce]

Very informative, as usual. Thanks, sorce. I repotted just before bud burst, as is recommended. These are new to me Trident Maples, so I'll leave them be for this, and maybe next year to learn how they grow.

I'm really tempted to prune back these long branches, though. It's becoming a bit unwieldy on my tiny fire escape. I'll resist the urge, though. That said, do you think it would be safe to snip them back after leaf drop for easier winter storage?

And I may very partially defoliate in the next few days to get more light in to the center.

Pics!

Ah...removing one of 2 side branches is never a bad thing IMO.

If it's overgrown its space....especially in "public"...(fire escape) I'd cut it back..sounds healthy enough.

Slow growth is slow growth!

The slower the better IMO.

So long as it don't die..
Many or good hard cutbacks at any time is only good IMO.
Benefits...smaller wounds, which counters the only negative..slower healing.
Stronger heartwood.
More Low action.
More low nodes.
More options.
Easier control.

The only thing you are really sacrificing is time....but it would be to make a better tree than most...good trade!

I probably wouldn't partially defoliate unless it is finished finished. Since you are not trying to keep an interior structure healthy.
Remember the action of defoliating is less "prompting", less hormonally signalling..which is why it is used on finished material.

You are likely still trying to prompt.
Or at least not worried about 60 years of work if you do. Better to cut off some side branches...whack a few apical tips...maybe wire or otherwise manipulate some branches around. A bit more signalling.


For me...the most important thing to figure out moving forward with a new growout maple...

What is neccesary to keep cutting branches off, but keeping their source node viable...and not full of scar...or otherwise ugly.
You have to cut to figure this out.

That and internode length...
When your trunk is ready...
And your branch beginning are clean and viable...
Its time to know how to get short internodes on your keepers.
This will be noted when you watch your other cuts.

Then...after a couple years of fiddling...
You can proceed forward without mistakes...on material still worthy.

Sorce

 

[AlainK]

i wouldnt say its ideal but ive done both, re pot and partial defoliate

Neither would I !

But sometimes, it works and perhaps it'll work. Working trees "off-season" is less risky on maples when they are healthy than on more touchy species like pines.

I had to uproot a field maple that grew near the door, It had very few roots left, but I put it in a pot and left it in the shade. Apparently, it was dead. It was originally about 60 cm tall.

Yet, I kept on watering it like my other monsters, and in July, it sprouted new leaves at the base. I tried to save it because it had this "winged bark" feature that are mentioned in other posts:

January 2016:



May 2017:



Today, June 2018:



I don't know what I could do with this one. It's a pity we leave so far away, you probably would: you're into dead wood, etc. which is probably how to handle this one as it is now.

So if you're interested, PM me and I'll send it to you. It won't cost me more than the 30 cigarettes I smoke everyday, so take it while I haven't given up: I'll give up smoking tomorrow. Er...



Seriously, I'm looking for somone to adopt it.

A.K.

 

[JudyB]

defoliation after leaves harden off, works extremely well on Beech. Beech are notorious for long branches with most of the growth at the tips. defoliation often rectifies this, inducing buds closer to the trunk to open. i did my last partial defoliation on a Beech today. will let them grow now.

Would you do this on any European beech, or just young vigorous ones? I hesitate to do this on mine, but perhaps partially might be a reasonable trial for my older one. Or is it only successful if you fully defoliate?

 

[AlainK]

I've done it!

Ouch, now I can see how much work has to be done.

 

[AlainK]

I hesitate to do this on mine, but perhaps partially might be a reasonable trial for my older one. Or is it only successful if you fully defoliate?

It's really hard to say, it depends not only on the vigour of the tree but also on the climate: if the weather is rather cool (21-25°C in the afternoon, 14-16°C at night) and reasonably rainy, there shouldn't be any problem. Hotter weather, if damp, is OK too if you keep the trees in a shaded place.

Here, total defoliation was, most of the time, a success: smaller, healthy leaves. But partiazl defoliation, like cutting the leaves to 2/3rd has always been of no avail: no new leaves, no backbudding.

To me -again, where I live- it's either you go the whole hog or you don't.

 

[cmeg1]

Zelkova defoliate really well.It is important to wire first flush and let grow out till’ it hardens off a bit.
There are always short internodes at the base of the flush that you can cut back to and proceed to defoliate.Now, I have done this three times a season on Zelkova,but now am really just wanting to once.Maybe twice on developing trees.
Important to wire the new growth.
On Zelkova I can actually break out the zero nitrogen fertilizers for the remainder of the season after I defoliate once or twice and everything just chills out.
Here is one I used to have.

 

[BobbyLane]

Would you do this on any European beech, or just young vigorous ones? I hesitate to do this on mine, but perhaps partially might be a reasonable trial for my older one. Or is it only successful if you fully defoliate?

Hi Judy, well the beech article on bonsai4me suggests its better to do partial , but ive tried both on healthy beech, young or old. ive done only partial on ones that were re potted the same year.

last year i did a full defoliation on this one...
20170719_203036 by Bobby Lane, on Flickr

july 2017
Defoliation june 2017 by Bobby Lane, on Flickr

aug 2017
IMG_5248 by Bobby Lane, on Flickr

this year ive just let it grow, its vigorous, its even more fuller now, this pic was a few weeks ago
20180524_115858 by Bobby Lane, on Flickr

at the time this one was pretty much full defoliated too
partial defoliation by Bobby Lane, on Flickr

 

[JudyB]

Hi Judy, well the beech article on bonsai4me suggests its better to do partial , but ive tried both on healthy beech, young or old. ive done only partial on ones that were re potted the same year.

last year i did a full defoliation on this one...
20170719_203036 by Bobby Lane, on Flickr

july 2017
Defoliation june 2017 by Bobby Lane, on Flickr

aug 2017
IMG_5248 by Bobby Lane, on Flickr

this year ive just let it grow, its vigorous, its even more fuller now, this pic was a few weeks ago
20180524_115858 by Bobby Lane, on Flickr

at the time this one was pretty much full defoliated too
partial defoliation by Bobby Lane, on Flickr

Have you had any noticeable positive reaction with backbudding to the partial defoliation? Or only with the full monty?