Japanese and Chinese Quinces - Thorns?

Messages
653
Likes
956
Location
São Paulo, Brazil
USDA Zone
11a
#1
Hi, I have got a couple of quinces today from a Japanese-owned nursery.
One is labeled "Japanese Quince Double White Flower-Chaenomeles Speciosa", and the other "Chinese Quince Red Flower-Chaenomeles Sinensis/ Pseudocydonia Sinensis".
Apparently they look the same (they have no flowers now), and the leaves look very much alike.
The only visible difference between them is that the "Japanese" has a cluster of flowering buds in one place, as the "Chinese" one has single buds everywhere on the branches.
Both have no thorns at all.
Wasn't the Japanese Quince supposed to have thorns?
 
Messages
3,226
Likes
4,619
Location
DALLAS
#2
Hi, I have got a couple of quinces today from a Japanese-owned nursery.
One is labeled "Japanese Quince Double White Flower-Chaenomeles Speciosa", and the other "Chinese Quince Red Flower-Chaenomeles Sinensis/ Pseudocydonia Sinensis".
Apparently they look the same (they have no flowers now), and the leaves look very much alike.
The only visible difference between them is that the "Japanese" has a cluster of flowering buds in one place, as the "Chinese" one has single buds everywhere on the branches.
Both have no thorns at all.
Wasn't the Japanese Quince supposed to have thorns?
Nope. Some Japanese flowering quince are thornless.
 
Messages
653
Likes
956
Location
São Paulo, Brazil
USDA Zone
11a
#3
[QUOTE="thumblessprimate1, post: 556338, member: 16292"Some Japanese flowering quince are thornless.[/QUOTE]

Thanks, so I came to the conclusion that the flowers are the only way to distinguish between them.
 
Messages
789
Likes
1,408
Location
Vancouver Island, British Columbia
USDA Zone
8b
#5
Some Quince that have been developed slowly over time can appear to be without thorns due to the refining technique applied. The thorns appear further out on the extension of new growth. If one wires the first 2-3 inches for movement and cuts back to that point, then repeats with each successive new growth the plant will appear to be thornless. One of the professionals in the Portland area has developed some amazing specimens using this method.
I have cuttings from the same stock and the thorns appear only on the longer extensions.
I have also seen some that are thornless due to genetics of that variety.
 
Messages
653
Likes
956
Location
São Paulo, Brazil
USDA Zone
11a
#6
If you know what you’re looking at, you’ll never confuse a pseudocydonia from a chaenomeles.
No, I don't, that's exactly why I am asking.
For now, I will keep them growing, enjoy the flowers and continue my research.
This the sort of answer that is not very useful when one asks a direct question...
 
Last edited:
Messages
653
Likes
956
Location
São Paulo, Brazil
USDA Zone
11a
#7
I have also seen some that are thornless due to genetics of that variety.
Thanks for your informative answer.
The point is, both quinces I got, supposedly one Japanese and the other Chinese, have no thorns at all.
Which (now I know) can be perfectly normal.
 
Messages
1,456
Likes
3,224
Location
Australia
#10
Hi, I have got a couple of quinces today from a Japanese-owned nursery.
One is labeled "Japanese Quince Double White Flower-Chaenomeles Speciosa", and the other "Chinese Quince Red Flower-Chaenomeles Sinensis/ Pseudocydonia Sinensis".
Apparently they look the same (they have no flowers now), and the leaves look very much alike.
The only visible difference between them is that the "Japanese" has a cluster of flowering buds in one place, as the "Chinese" one has single buds everywhere on the branches.
Both have no thorns at all.
Wasn't the Japanese Quince supposed to have thorns?
Chaenomeles japonica (Japanese flowering quince) usually has some thorns and orangey / red or white flowers) It is a smaller shrub with smaller leaves on average than the speciosa. (Chojubai is a variety or subspecies of japonica)
Chaenomeles speciosa (Chinese flowering quince) has flowers ranging from red to white and includes pink. The flowers are larger than the japonica. It also has thorns but as mentioned earlier usually on strong branches. It has thicker branches and ramifies with more difficulty than the japonica. It is more upright in growth habit.
Chaenomeles x Superba has the genes of both species so the variation can be almost endless.
Pseudocydonia sinensis (Now just Cydonia) has pink flowers, is a tree rather than a shrub like the others and does not sucker like the others do. It does not have thorns but may have sharpened modified branchlets like Pyracantha and some hawthorn on vigorous main branches.
 

Brian Van Fleet

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
8,743
Likes
15,269
Location
B’ham, AL
USDA Zone
7B
#11
No, I don't, that's exactly why I am asking.
For now, I will keep them growing, enjoy the flowers and continue my research.
This the sort of answer that is not very useful when one asks a direct question...
It’s all how you choose to use it. More research on your own sounds like a good plan for you, since you seem to have a problem with those who speak with authority around here.
 
Messages
10,757
Likes
8,762
Location
NE Ohio: zone 5b (USA)
USDA Zone
5b
#14
Thanks, Darlene.
I will keep an eye at the differences, not easy at the moment as the plants have no flowers and almost no leaves right now.
They are nothing alike. Once in leaf there is no mistaking one for the other. 😉 not in leaf...explains a lot.
 

GrimLore

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
8,476
Likes
7,216
Location
South East PA
USDA Zone
6b
#15
Mark the pots or stake the tags in them, observe, they are quite different but could be very easy to mix up right now. In time ID is no problem but honest I have had several different types as bare cuttings at the same time and had no idea what they were until leaf. Cool plants though and once growing healthy will offer you some good Bonsai experience :)
 
Messages
653
Likes
956
Location
São Paulo, Brazil
USDA Zone
11a
#16
I have had several different types as bare cuttings at the same time and had no idea what they were until leaf.
I guess this is why I am asking; they are almost bare of leaves now, and with no flowers.
Thanks, I will wait for a season and see how they are doing and of course the differences will show up. It is very difficult to find these trees here, unlike in the USA or Europe.
 
Last edited:
Messages
653
Likes
956
Location
São Paulo, Brazil
USDA Zone
11a
#17
Chaenomeles japonica (Japanese flowering quince) usually has some thorns and orangey / red or white flowers) It is a smaller shrub with smaller leaves on average than the speciosa. (Chojubai is a variety or subspecies of japonica)
Chaenomeles speciosa (Chinese flowering quince) has flowers ranging from red to white and includes pink.
Reading the description above, one can see where the confusion starts. The two are identified as Chaenomeles. But Speciosa named as "Chinese Quince". Go figure!
 
Messages
653
Likes
956
Location
São Paulo, Brazil
USDA Zone
11a
#19
More research on your own sounds like a good plan for you, since you seem to have a problem with those who speak with authority
@Brian Van Fleet ,
Nah, I'm not like that. In fact I am very grateful for your knowledge and all the help and good info we can get from you experienced bonsai guys.
When doing my own research as suggested, I got impressed on how the searches on Google and elsewhere pointed most of the time to the of Bnut discussions. Which speaks for itself.
Sorry if I sounded ungrateful or pretentious, but I was really after the "thorns" issue.