Japanese Black Pine Needle Drop

lillarch

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Black Pine has older needles turning brown and falling off. Seems like a lot for normal ~3 year old needle drop. The tree was repotted this spring and came to me stressed just before that. Can someone tell me if they thing this is normal needle drop or something problematic? Please see photos.
 

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Paradox

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Is it me or the color really off?
It looks kinda yellow to light lime green instead of dark green
 

namnhi

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From the look of it I think the tree is sick. Could be some fungal disease. That is not a normal old needle shredding. The current year needle look too light green to be healthy. Sorry I don't know what is the cause and the solution.
 

Lorax7

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Is it me or the color really off?
It looks kinda yellow to light lime green instead of dark green
I agree. That is not the dark green one usually expects to see on healthy JBP. Makes me wonder if perhaps the roots are staying too wet.
 

Paradox

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I agree. That is not the dark green one usually expects to see on healthy JBP. Makes me wonder if perhaps the roots are staying too wet.

The only thing about it being too wet is that the moss on top of the soil should also be very green if it was being kept wet.
On the other hand, moss can lead to the soil staying wetter longer.
That said, a reasonable question would be how often it it watered and what kind of soil is it in?
 

lillarch

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It is in 1:1:1 pumice lava pine bark. Watered when the soil is dry 1/4” below surface.
 

lillarch

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The only thing about it being too wet is that the moss on top of the soil should also be very green if it was being kept wet.
On the other hand, moss can lead to the soil staying wetter longer.
That said, a reasonable question would be how often it it watered and what kind of soil is it in?
The moss is a darker variety that I found growing in the sun.
 

Potawatomi13

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All but current years needles being shed is not normal. MAY be because tree is weak? Is tree getting full or near full sun exposure as needed🤔? H2O sounds good.
 

Shibui

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My reading of the photos is last season's needles are the ones falling. There's just a small gap between the old and new needles on those stems IMHO
Still, shedding last year's needles is not altogether normal so need to look for reasons.
As mentioned, too much water can do that. Even in 1:1:1 it is possible to get root rot if the tree is root bound. I've had some of that in the last couple of years here.

Too dry will also cause premature needle drop. Even a day of dry is enough for some trees to do this to survive.
Nutrient deficiency can also cause needle drop.

Some background info may help point us in the right direction:
Fertilizing regime to date.
Sun exposure and local temps recently.
Only 1 shot shows tree and pot but from way above so it looks like a very small pot for the tree. What is real pot/tree ratio please.
Looks like a lot of white on branches and among the needles. Any chance this tree has pine bark adeljid? Good clear shots of any suspect areas could help.
 

lillarch

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All but current years needles being shed is not normal. MAY be because tree is weak? Is tree getting full or near full sun exposure as needed🤔? H2O sounds good.
The tree came to me weak last spring. It has full sun.
 

lillarch

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My reading of the photos is last season's needles are the ones falling. There's just a small gap between the old and new needles on those stems IMHO
Still, shedding last year's needles is not altogether normal so need to look for reasons.
As mentioned, too much water can do that. Even in 1:1:1 it is possible to get root rot if the tree is root bound. I've had some of that in the last couple of years here.

Too dry will also cause premature needle drop. Even a day of dry is enough for some trees to do this to survive.
Nutrient deficiency can also cause needle drop.

Some background info may help point us in the right direction:
Fertilizing regime to date.
Sun exposure and local temps recently.
Only 1 shot shows tree and pot but from way above so it looks like a very small pot for the tree. What is real pot/tree ratio please.
Looks like a lot of white on branches and among the needles. Any chance this tree has pine bark adeljid? Good clear shots of any suspect areas could help.
I used the below fertilizer every couple weeks in the spring and early summer


Sun exposure is full sun all day with highs in the last couple weeks ranging from 75-90

Pot tree ration shown below.

close up of soil surface shown below

image.jpgimage.jpg

image.jpgimage.jpg image.jpg
 

namnhi

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Soil looks to be the problem.... too wet and too much fine. Too much bark component in the mix. I see some of the limbs (tips) started to die from the last set of photos. Needles are too short and pale green. Maybe let the soil dry out a bit more before water again.
 

lillarch

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Soil looks to be the problem.... too wet and too much fine. Too much bark component in the mix. I see some of the limbs (tips) started to die from the last set of photos. Needles are too short and pale green. Maybe let the soil dry out a bit more before water again.
I just watered it last night so that is why the soil is wet…

If you are talking about the soil that stayed intact during repotting then what is the solution?
 

namnhi

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I just watered it last night so that is why the soil is wet…

If you are talking about the soil that stayed intact during repotting then what is the solution?
I just took these photos after about 30 minutes from torrential rain we had.
Want to add that these has been repotted 3 or 4 years ago.
 

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Shibui

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The new pics show the problem is worse than appeared in the earlier shots. Many shoots only have a few needles and some are completely dead so the problems are now approaching critical.

Fert regime you are using should supply enough nutrients to keep a tree healthy so much more likely the problems are elsewhere.

That appears to be a very small pot for quite a large tree. I believe that's called shoehorning and I can't imagine it is good for the tree. The shoots I can see seem to indicate it has been growing poorly for some years with abnormally short annual growth.
If you left much older soil on the roots at repot that's also a likely problem as the tree will have so little new soil to grow into in that small pot that the poor, old soil will likely have a much larger influence on roots and therefore health. I know that bare root pine is reputed to be dangerous but so is leaving large quantities of toxic soil in a pot. I know I get far better results when removing the majority of old soil from pines when repotting from poor soils.
I will also assume that for this repot you cut some old soil away leaving a ball of roots and soil then potted up with fresh soil under and around the old root ball. When new soil and old soil are very different in a pot it makes it really difficult for water to move from one soil type to another. I know I've seen cases where the new, outer soil was nicely wet while the old, inner soil was still bone dry and other cases where the situation is reversed and the inner soil cannot dry out properly. (I've done many autopsies on dead trees here over many years)

I would start off by making holes into the old soil part to allow water and air to move through that soil as already suggested by @Paradox and hope that will give you some more time.
At the appropriate time of year repot properly and give the tree a decent sized pot to allow it to recover for a few years.
 

Shogun610

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My advice
1-carefully remove all moss from top of pot
2- chopstick or screw to poke holes into soil .. this combines with removing moss will allow better aeration.. and/or carefully use chopstick and scrape away any bits of duff and soil just tht very very top layer
3- Tilt the pot to allow for more drainage
4- Next watering the tipped pot will allow soil column better drainage
5- Feed the tree with a organic fertilizer which will be crucial come vascular growth for fall.
6- do not prune or touch the tree at all
7 - In dormancy spray beginning middle and end dormancy szn with copper fungicide to prevent fungal disease next spring. The tree is weak so it will be super prone to those diseases.
8-Repot the tree next spring in a larger container possiblly even a grow container or colander soon as buds start to push, remove 60% of old soil but leave core in tact .. pines rely on mycorrhiza , into a 2:1:1 mix of Pumice , Akadama and Lava.. base layer should also be large grains of pumice for aeration layer , this will help with water and oxygen balance.
 
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