Japanese Black Pine reverse taper problem

[michang05]

Hi All,

I've recently acquired two JBP and I'm currently in the Philippines, (I got this from a nursery and the picture below was an import from Japan and was said to be grown from its pot ~15yrs). I noticed the base trunk seems small and formed a reverse taper, I've watched several videos and was told about sacrifice branches but i do think the branch is too high from the base that it might not help the lowest trunk to get thicker.

I also heard scarring the base trunk might do the trick but a bit skeptical as I do not want to make any actions that might stress/kill the tree.

Any help would be appreciated, thanks.

*I have a lot of questions in any information about growing pine in a tropical country like here in the Philippines as well.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Personally have or had 3 trees from Telperion Farms with wire grown into lower trunk for this purpose. Wrap skinny section tightly using normal wrap technique and just let tree grow around it. Current wire on lower tree would work well.

 

[michang05]

Personally have or had 3 trees from Telperion Farms with wire grown into lower trunk for this purpose. Wrap skinny section tightly using normal wrap technique and just let tree grow around it. Current wire on lower tree would work well.

you mean I do need to add more wire around the skinny part of my base trunk? If so, i do need to stop the wire once it bites the wrapped wires?

 

[Potawatomi13]

What is there is enough.

 

[michang05]

What is there is enough.

Oh, ok. No more additions. How about scarring the thin areas?

 

[Potawatomi13]

It is scarring that makes trunk thicker as wood grows over wire. In time this evens out/becomes less conspicuous.

 

[Shibui]

Sometimes growers leave the wire on the lower trunk on purpose to scar the trunk. The wire is left on permanently. Eventually it will be swallowed inside the trunk. As the tree heals over the top of the wire it thickens far more than unscarred areas above. That would help with the taper issue but will take some years for the tree to thicken enough to completely cover the wire.
It is also possible to manually scar the trunk rather than letting the wire do it. Cut vertical (follow the direction of the trunk round bends) slashes through the bark right down to the wood. Healing should then promote callus which grows faster than other areas. you may have to repeat the process every few months to get a good result.

I can't help with pine culture in tropical areas but I have heard that they grow most of the year and can be decandled several times each year.

 

[michang05]

Sometimes growers leave the wire on the lower trunk on purpose to scar the trunk. The wire is left on permanently. Eventually it will be swallowed inside the trunk. As the tree heals over the top of the wire it thickens far more than unscarred areas above. That would help with the taper issue but will take some years for the tree to thicken enough to completely cover the wire.
It is also possible to manually scar the trunk rather than letting the wire do it. Cut vertical (follow the direction of the trunk round bends) slashes through the bark right down to the wood. Healing should then promote callus which grows faster than other areas. you may have to repeat the process every few months to get a good result.

I can't help with pine culture in tropical areas but I have heard that they grow most of the year and can be decandled several times each year.

Thanks, I think I will also do the intentional scarring, so i need to scar them deep into the wood? Im looking for videos in youtube no luck.

Interesting, I bought my pine in the highlands in the Philippines yet this one posted was said to be imported from Japan, the pine nursery there seem to be growing well.

Philippines only has 2 Seasons: (I'm thinking if I would need to map the Spring time outside our country so it would be better for me to take care of the pines)

• Wet : June - November (said to be Rainy, typhoon etc.)
• Dry : December - May (sometimes extending to June)
  • Cool Dry = December - February​
  • Hot Dry = March - May (or June) ; typically our "Summer" time.​

 

[Shibui]

To activate callus - which is the mechanism that promotes scarring and rapid thickening - you need to cut through the cambium layer. Just making holes in the outer bark will not do anything as that is just dead material.
Cambium layer is very thin between wood and bark. Try peeling bark of an active growing branch (not one you want to keep) and see where that occurs to get an idea of how deep you may need to go.
Different species have differing thickness of bark so how deep varies from species to species and from older bark to thinner, younger bark. The good thing is that you can't do any real damage by going too deep.
I have used this on thinner barked Japanese maples but not on pines (yet).

There is no real point trying to match tropical seasons to temperate seasons. You will need to find some contacts in similar areas. There are JBP growers in Brisbane and other parts of QLD that would have similar sub-tropical seasons and may help point you in the right direction. Others in West Indies and other more tropical areas may be able to add some ideas. @Anthony may be able to help here.

Otherwise start with first principles and ditch the calendar and established temperate pine maintenance schedules.
New shoots after decandling are usually shorter and smaller than initial shoots.
Feed well before decandling but with hold fert while new shoots grow.
Pine needs around 100 days of growing to develop mature new shoots- this is the principle you need to match to your pine growth calendar and may allow a second decandling.
Breaking the tips/breaking candles in half is also used by some growers to limit extension and candle size, It does not address the bare 'neck' on spring candles but may be a useful addition to decandling for you.
Pines can shoot new buds from healthy needle clusters which means you can also prune back further than the new shoots during development and occasionally in maintenance.

 

[michang05]

Ok, just did the scarring. hope I did ok.

thank for the information. Currently my pine has some buds, small shoot and a long candle at the back, I think i may need to start prune/decandle them next year. I'll do observe the growth this month and will follow accordingly since the tree is now in a tropical country.

 

[Njyamadori]

Hi All,

I've recently acquired two JBP and I'm currently in the Philippines, (I got this from a nursery and the picture below was an import from Japan and was said to be grown from its pot ~15yrs). I noticed the base trunk seems small and formed a reverse taper, I've watched several videos and was told about sacrifice branches but i do think the branch is too high from the base that it might not help the lowest trunk to get thicker.

I also heard scarring the base trunk might do the trick but a bit skeptical as I do not want to make any actions that might stress/kill the tree.

Any help would be appreciated, thanks.

*I have a lot of questions in any information about growing pine in a tropical country like here in the Philippines as well.View attachment 338601
View attachment 338600

I’m no pro but I think I would split the trunk

 

[Adair M]

Personally have or had 3 trees from Telperion Farms with wire grown into lower trunk for this purpose. Wrap skinny section tightly using normal wrap technique and just let tree grow around it. Current wire on lower tree would work well.

Who are you, and what have you done with Potawatomi13? The REAL Potawatomi13 would never own a JBP! No! Only yamadori are good enough for him! Especially not a wire scarred, manufactured nursery tree!

 

[Potawatomi13]

Who are you, and what have you done with Potawatomi13? The REAL Potawatomi13 would never own a JBP! No! Only yamadori are good enough for him! Especially not a wire scarred, manufactured nursery tree!

Was led astray by weak will and visits to nice folks not having Yamadori)-:.

 

[clem]

Hi All,

I've recently acquired two JBP and I'm currently in the Philippines, (I got this from a nursery and the picture below was an import from Japan and was said to be grown from its pot ~15yrs). I noticed the base trunk seems small and formed a reverse taper, I've watched several videos and was told about sacrifice branches but i do think the branch is too high from the base that it might not help the lowest trunk to get thicker.

I also heard scarring the base trunk might do the trick but a bit skeptical as I do not want to make any actions that might stress/kill the tree.

Any help would be appreciated, thanks.

I would just let the 1rst branch grow very very much : the trunk below this sacrifice branche will thicken. And the bark will developp too in years/decades coming. Your tree is young, it will thicken very quick

 

[michang05]

I would just let the 1rst branch grow very very much : the trunk below this sacrifice branche will thicken. And the bark will developp too in years/decades coming. Your tree is young, it will thicken very quick

that's my idea initially, but when i looked at the first branch (on the left side) it feels too high from the bottom trunk, but if you said it will thicken everything below it, then I still might do it.

when it comes to its age the seller told me this is ~15yrs I've paid a heft $300+ for this (15k pesos) , I think they are the only JBP nursery here in the Philippines and this one came from Japan probably added an extra with the price itself (grown on pot)

 

[Shibui]

15 years??? That must be very thick wire. No scale in the photos so harder to judge size. Ho thick is the trunk near the ground? My guess is 1cm diameter. Should be able to get 1cm trunk in 2-3 years. Branches like that in maybe 4-5 years.

I was told that Philippino growers grow stock to sell to Japanese bonsai nurseries. Maybe you should look for local growers and species better suited to tropical conditions. Cheaper and also easier to grow and maintain I think.

 

[Shibui]

that's my idea initially, but when i looked at the first branch (on the left side) it feels too high from the bottom trunk, but if you said it will thicken everything below it, then I still might do it.

It all depends on your vision for the tree. Growing that low branch will certainly thicken the lower trunk but it will need to be cut off eventually making the first branch higher. That may suit a larger tree.
For a smaller tree let the apex grow free for a couple of years then cut the trunk above the second or 3rd branch and use that branch as a new apex.
Those ideas are for thick trunk bonsai and will all take years to implement.
You have already paid through the nose for the tree so you could also choose to move to branch development and ramification and put up with a thinner trunk for years but have the only(?) JBP bonsai in the Philippines.

Choices are always yours in bonsai. Don't let bonsai experts dictate one particular course of action.

 

[michang05]

15 years??? That must be very thick wire. No scale in the photos so harder to judge size. Ho thick is the trunk near the ground? My guess is 1cm diameter. Should be able to get 1cm trunk in 2-3 years. Branches like that in maybe 4-5 years.

I was told that Philippino growers grow stock to sell to Japanese bonsai nurseries. Maybe you should look for local growers and species better suited to tropical conditions. Cheaper and also easier to grow and maintain I think.

same sentiment, but who am I to argue newbie about JBP, they are the only one who sell and cultivate locally grown JBP from the groups I joined here.
The base trunk is ~5cm in circumference, in essence I would need 5 more cms to get a good taper. Is it true for 1cm of trunk thickness you need 1m of sacrificial branch length in this case 5meters (hope to get more secondary branches and more)

Our native pine species here, coming from the people in the group are only two the Mindoro Pine and benguet Pine (http://www.stuartxchange.org/BaguioPine.html), both thrive well in highlands, i am looking for Mindoro Pine as this might be more tolerant. https://philippines.fieldmuseum.org/natural-history/narrative/4147

 

[michang05]

It all depends on your vision for the tree. Growing that low branch will certainly thicken the lower trunk but it will need to be cut off eventually making the first branch higher. That may suit a larger tree.
For a smaller tree let the apex grow free for a couple of years then cut the trunk above the second or 3rd branch and use that branch as a new apex.
Those ideas are for thick trunk bonsai and will all take years to implement.
You have already paid through the nose for the tree so you could also choose to move to branch development and ramification and put up with a thinner trunk for years but have the only(?) JBP bonsai in the Philippines.

Choices are always yours in bonsai. Don't let bonsai experts dictate one particular course of action.

I still have one much younger so I think I'll do this advise to that tree

 

[BunjaeKorea]

The wire scaring methods produces trees with zero value in Asia. Its what they sell to gullible Westerners. As for 15 years.....I have to be very honest.... I say its about 3 or 4. These grow like weeds in Japan and Korea. My rea concern is overwintering If this tree is from Okinawa you may be okay but even Kyushu is so much colder than Phil that its going to be an issue. Keep an eye on it and keep it at as low as possible temps in winter. (Your cool season)