Japanese Black Pine Troubleshoot!

[paths00]

Hi all! Will attach some photos but I’ve had this pine for about a week. It came from a local bonsai nursery which had it in a greenhouse (Midwest) and were in the process of moving them outside for the season. I mentioned this because I’m not sure if the issue I’m seeing is a cause of too much direct sun/shock of coming out of a shaded area in winter? Some needles are also turning white/brown and breaking off.

When I brought the tree home I placed it in direct sun / shade on my patio and noticed a big change in the needles. I have been watering when I feel the soil has dried. Any tips would be greatly appreciated this is my first pine.

 

[Paradox]

Looks like the tree has a case of scale.
Are there little brown oblong shells on the needles (thought I could see some in the second picture)

 

[Potawatomi13]

In case have not heard yet be aware putting skinny tree in Bonsai pot likely guarantees any development of bigger trunk will not happen.

 

[paths00]

In case have not heard yet be aware putting skinny tree in Bonsai pot likely guarantees any development of bigger trunk will not happen.

I purchased it in this pot, plan on putting it in a larger pot next spring for this reason.

 

[MaciekA]

• Scan all needles for scale and remove any you see manually
• Scan for any needles that have signs of needle cast (a yellow or bround band somewhere in the interior of the needle) and remove those needles carefully. It's good to do this before it busts open and dumps spores all over the place
• Take care not to overwater. Water less frequently even if you do water thoroughly.
• Put your pines in the strongest-lit + best-airflow + most-hours-of-sun-per-day locations you have. Scale tends to attack weak pines. Weak pines are underlit pines, pines where water retention is too high, or pines that are overworked.
• Post a very well-lit picture of the entire surface area of the soil filling the frame of the picture. The soil looks almost as if it's potting soil covered with decorative pebbles, or possibly an organic-soil-rootball slip-potted into inorganic soil. If that's the case, these factors will be the main sources of all issues with this tree.
• Mindset-wise, look to your new needles and new growth for an indication of what's going on today and don't worry nearly as much about old and busted second or third year needles. And if this is your first rodeo with pines, expect 3rd year needle shedding at some point (or points) during the year -- don't panic when that happens, and don't panic when 3rd year (or generally elder) needles start to look like crap. Foliage which is on its way out always looks like crap in any evergreen species, and is not a good motivation to break out sprays/chemicals if the new foliage or 1 year foliage looks fine.
• Also, if you're sold a pine that's very young and still in development but is already in a shallow bonsai pot and has organic soil in it, fully expect that the needles will look like crap and succumb easily on their way out. In my experience, it's also the case that greenhouses big or small degrade pine health due to the added unhelpful humidity and reduction in sun intensity.
• If you have any junk on top of the soil, remove it. Remove all decorative stuff, remove all organic material, keep the surface clean

A good overall strategy: Full blazing sun and withholding water until the most water retentive part of your soil starts to dry out.

 

[paths00]

• Scan all needles for scale and remove any you see manually
• Scan for any needles that have signs of needle cast (a yellow or bround band somewhere in the interior of the needle) and remove those needles carefully. It's good to do this before it busts open and dumps spores all over the place
• Take care not to overwater. Water less frequently even if you do water thoroughly.
• Put your pines in the strongest-lit + best-airflow + most-hours-of-sun-per-day locations you have. Scale tends to attack weak pines. Weak pines are underlit pines, pines where water retention is too high, or pines that are overworked.
• Post a very well-lit picture of the entire surface area of the soil filling the frame of the picture. The soil looks almost as if it's potting soil covered with decorative pebbles, or possibly an organic-soil-rootball slip-potted into inorganic soil. If that's the case, these factors will be the main sources of all issues with this tree.
• Mindset-wise, look to your new needles and new growth for an indication of what's going on today and don't worry nearly as much about old and busted second or third year needles. And if this is your first rodeo with pines, expect 3rd year needle shedding at some point (or points) during the year -- don't panic when that happens, and don't panic when 3rd year (or generally elder) needles start to look like crap. Foliage which is on its way out always looks like crap in any evergreen species, and is not a good motivation to break out sprays/chemicals if the new foliage or 1 year foliage looks fine.
• Also, if you're sold a pine that's very young and still in development but is already in a shallow bonsai pot and has organic soil in it, fully expect that the needles will look like crap and succumb easily on their way out. In my experience, it's also the case that greenhouses big or small degrade pine health due to the added unhelpful humidity and reduction in sun intensity.
• If you have any junk on top of the soil, remove it. Remove all decorative stuff, remove all organic material, keep the surface clean

A good overall strategy: Full blazing sun and withholding water until the most water retentive part of your soil starts to dry out.

Thanks a ton for this advice. I have a feeling it has to do with the soil retaining water, you hit it spot on, it's organic soil that had moss on top of it which I found strange for a pine so I removed it and placed something dry instead. Do you think that it's worth repotting it when it's already not doing great or let it dry out?

 

[MaciekA]

Thanks a ton for this advice. I have a feeling it has to do with the soil retaining water, you hit it spot on, it's organic soil that had moss on top of it which I found strange for a pine so I removed it and placed something dry instead. Do you think that it's worth repotting it when it's already not doing great or let it dry out?

It's not worth repotting mainly because the needles are well on their way in emerging. So the alternative in the meantime is to simply help them do their job. Basically

• increasing more time between waterings and improving the precision of your "is it moist" ritual -- chopstick dip sticks and the like can really help you get a sense of the true moisture curve from day to day, week to week. If you can determine there is moisture under the surface, drop the hose and wait until the next check
• tipping the pot on an angle to hasten the drying cycle
• max sun/max airflow/rotate for exposure
• retain foliage, do not prune or decandle -- the more photosynthetic surface area, the more the foliage can greatly out-muscle water retention in the soil. You can tip the odds in your favor with (I swear this pun wasn't intended ) the pot tipping described above.
• praying for hot sunny weather and low humidity

 

[jszg]

My own pine is also looking a little tired after what I presume was moderate root stress (but the reverse, hot and dry)- hopefully both our trees turn out alright, but look at those candles! At the very least there's plenty of energy stored within the tree.

 

[paths00]

It's not worth repotting mainly because the needles are well on their way in emerging. So the alternative in the meantime is to simply help them do their job. Basically

• increasing more time between waterings and improving the precision of your "is it moist" ritual -- chopstick dip sticks and the like can really help you get a sense of the true moisture curve from day to day, week to week. If you can determine there is moisture under the surface, drop the hose and wait until the next check
• tipping the pot on an angle to hasten the drying cycle
• max sun/max airflow/rotate for exposure
• retain foliage, do not prune or decandle -- the more photosynthetic surface area, the more the foliage can greatly out-muscle water retention in the soil. You can tip the odds in your favor with (I swear this pun wasn't intended ) the pot tipping described above.
• praying for hot sunny weather and low humidity

Thanks again! Will be sure to revisit here and post some updates in a few weeks

 

[paths00]

My own pine is also looking a little tired after what I presume was moderate root stress (but the reverse, hot and dry)- hopefully both our trees turn out alright, but look at those candles! At the very least there's plenty of energy stored within the tree.

I’m in the Midwest I wish I had hot/dry weather! Haha, the candles are giving me light for the tree.

 

[MaciekA]

the candles are giving me light

Nicely done

 

[paths00]

It's not worth repotting mainly because the needles are well on their way in emerging. So the alternative in the meantime is to simply help them do their job. Basically

• increasing more time between waterings and improving the precision of your "is it moist" ritual -- chopstick dip sticks and the like can really help you get a sense of the true moisture curve from day to day, week to week. If you can determine there is moisture under the surface, drop the hose and wait until the next check
• tipping the pot on an angle to hasten the drying cycle
• max sun/max airflow/rotate for exposure
• retain foliage, do not prune or decandle -- the more photosynthetic surface area, the more the foliage can greatly out-muscle water retention in the soil. You can tip the odds in your favor with (I swear this pun wasn't intended ) the pot tipping described above.
• praying for hot sunny weather and low humidity

My pine has been weird last few weeks so decided to checkout the roots. Am I looking at the healthy fungus I’ve read about online or something else? Should I repot? Or put this in a larger pot? Help!!

 

[namnhi]

It looks to be mycorrhiza, which is a good fungus for pine. Not the right time to repot. Put it back in the pot until next Spring when candle start elongated.

 

[Potawatomi13]

My pine has been weird last few weeks so decided to checkout the roots. Am I looking at the healthy fungus I’ve read about online?

YES

Should I repot?

Only if wanting to grow decent sized trunk.

Put this in a larger pot? .

See previous answer

 

[billfromtheboot]

Thanks a ton for this advice. I have a feeling it has to do with the soil retaining water, you hit it spot on, it's organic soil that had moss on top of it which I found strange for a pine so I removed it and placed something dry instead. Do you think that it's worth repotting it when it's already not doing great or let it dry out?

It’s too late to repot and I wouldn’t do any wiring until you start seeing the center new growth take on a darker green tone. It can be saved though. I would buy a humidity gauge and test the soil everyday. If the gauge is showing moisture with a green or yellow marker, don’t water it. If you are testing the soil in different areas of the tree and only some sections are showing saturation, then you might want to (and I’m sure I’ll get abused for saying this) try repotting with new soil in those areas, but without repotting the entire tree. Using a chopstick can make it easier to dig out, but you don’t want to disturb or break the roots. I’ve done this with mine before and it recovered rather quickly.
In regards to reading a gauge, if it shows green or even yellow, don’t water it. You don’t want to water the tree until you see the gauge between yellow and red.
Once you’re able to repot the tree, and sure you’re using a good mix for jbp, you’ll be able to go back to watering once per day. That’s just my take on it from experience. I’m no master by any since of the word, but yellowing at the tips is usually a sign of overwatering or needle cast. But as somebody else above mentioned, the older outer needles aren’t important. It’s the new needles you need to pay attention the most attention to.
The only product I use for needle issues is called Daconil and it works well. In fact, as new buds begin to pop, I spray them to help prevent disease. If you’re going to have black pines, daconil is a very important product to own.
The beneficial bacteria for the roots can be bought on Amazon. It’s called mycorrhizal. I could be incorrect, but I’m pretty sure it’s kinda like a trees version of our stomachs beneficial bacteria. Like I said, could be wrong, but I know it’s beneficial. It’s always important to find a local bonsai club as well, or even the nursery where you go it.
The bonsai community usually has some of the coolest people, that will help you when you’re having issues.
Hope that helps.

 

[Maiden69]

It’s too late to repot and I wouldn’t do any wiring until you start seeing the center new growth take on a darker green tone. It can be saved though. I would buy a humidity gauge and test the soil everyday. If the gauge is showing moisture with a green or yellow marker, don’t water it. If you are testing the soil in different areas of the tree and only some sections are showing saturation, then you might want to (and I’m sure I’ll get abused for saying this) try repotting with new soil in those areas, but without repotting the entire tree. Using a chopstick can make it easier to dig out, but you don’t want to disturb or break the roots. I’ve done this with mine before and it recovered rather quickly.
In regards to reading a gauge, if it shows green or even yellow, don’t water it. You don’t want to water the tree until you see the gauge between yellow and red.
Once you’re able to repot the tree, and sure you’re using a good mix for jbp, you’ll be able to go back to watering once per day. That’s just my take on it from experience. I’m no master by any since of the word, but yellowing at the tips is usually a sign of overwatering or needle cast. But as somebody else above mentioned, the older outer needles aren’t important. It’s the new needles you need to pay attention the most attention to.
The only product I use for needle issues is called Daconil and it works well. In fact, as new buds begin to pop, I spray them to help prevent disease. If you’re going to have black pines, daconil is a very important product to own.
The beneficial bacteria for the roots can be bought on Amazon. It’s called mycorrhizal. I could be incorrect, but I’m pretty sure it’s kinda like a trees version of our stomachs beneficial bacteria. Like I said, could be wrong, but I know it’s beneficial. It’s always important to find a local bonsai club as well, or even the nursery where you go it.
The bonsai community usually has some of the coolest people, that will help you when you’re having issues.
Hope that helps.

So much bad information here... please take a step back, do some research before spewing all that craziness.

He's in a zone 5, I have repotted my JBP in Texas zone 8b with candles already extended at the end of April and had no issues. @Shibui does the same, I think JBP are the last trees he repot in the season.

I wire the trunk on my young trees at the same time I repot...

A humidity gauge... right...

Repotting the soil in some areas... right...

I'm just going to stop there... @paths00 roots look fine, just healthy fungi. If you are not comfortable repotting right now, just manage the watering. Moss on top of the soil is no issue, and could give you a hint if the tree is getting too dry. I can't get moss to grow on mine so no big deal by removing it. This tree is young and I don't see any issues with repotting it now. I had a similar issue with the needles, but they were fine the next year without using any chemical. It was isolated like yours and not all over the tree.

Do some research, Jonas has a lot of info on JBP, spend a few hours there reading.

How to repot a young Japanese black pine (1 of 2) - Bonsai Tonight

I have been growing Japanese black pine bonsai from seed for the past 17 years. During this time, I've done a lot of repotting. This past January, it dawned

bonsaitonight.com

 

[billfromtheboot]

Why is it when people come here to give recommendations, there’s always one guy that feels the need to be rude, and completely negate everything that another person recommends, even if it actually worked for them? You can’t say I’m wrong if I’ve been doing this for years with success. Just because you don’t agree, doesn’t make you the lord of black pine.

 

[billfromtheboot]

So much bad information here... please take a step back, do some research before spewing all that craziness.

He's in a zone 5, I have repotted my JBP in Texas zone 8b with candles already extended at the end of April and had no issues. @Shibui does the same, I think JBP are the last trees he repot in the season.

I wire the trunk on my young trees at the same time I repot...

A humidity gauge... right...

Repotting the soil in some areas... right...

I'm just going to stop there... @paths00 roots look fine, just healthy fungi. If you are not comfortable repotting right now, just manage the watering. Moss on top of the soil is no issue, and could give you a hint if the tree is getting too dry. I can't get moss to grow on mine so no big deal by removing it. This tree is young and I don't see any issues with repotting it now. I had a similar issue with the needles, but they were fine the next year without using any chemical. It was isolated like yours and not all over the tree.

Do some research, Jonas has a lot of info on JBP, spend a few hours there reading.

How to repot a young Japanese black pine (1 of 2) - Bonsai Tonight

I have been growing Japanese black pine bonsai from seed for the past 17 years. During this time, I've done a lot of repotting. This past January, it dawned

bonsaitonight.com

… spewing craziness? You really are a pompous clown.

 

[Wulfskaar]

Why is it when people come here to give recommendations, there’s always one guy that feels the need to be rude, and completely negate everything that another person recommends, even if it actually worked for them? You can’t say I’m wrong if I’ve been doing this for years with success. Just because you don’t agree, doesn’t make you the lord of black pine.

And that's why we get these type of posts:

The "So?" response to bonsai rules.

The members of my bonsai club and the local bonsai artists know about my disdain for "The Rules". If you want to follow the guidelines or rules, please do. If the guidance of the rules helps you make a better bonsai, please use it. My PERSONAL view is that I don't need them...

www.bonsainut.com

With any advice, the OP asking the question will need to come to his/her own conclusions. I have received a lot of conflicting advice myself. You just have to make your own decision and do what you think is best.

 

[Maiden69]

Why is it when people come here to give recommendations, there’s always one guy that feels the need to be rude, and completely negate everything that another person recommends, even if it actually worked for them? You can’t say I’m wrong if I’ve been doing this for years with success. Just because you don’t agree, doesn’t make you the lord of black pine.

Because I don't believe in sugar coating things don't mean that I am rude... I am not the lord of the pines, there are a few here... @Shibui, @Brian Van Fleet, @markyscott and others.

You are giving nonsense advise, you didn't take into account the zone the OP is when stating that it was too late to repot. There is no need for a humidity gauge, and worse if you are asking him to probe through different spots on the root-ball to see how IF the soil is holding too much water at different locations, then recommending him to repot the tree by changing the soil in only those places but not the entire tree. I've been working with pines since 2019, so fairly new here, and I decided to join here in 2020, and still I ask when I am unsure on what to do. But I don't go giving advise if I am not certain on what I am talking about. Most of the time I quote the source from where the knowledge came, be it Jonas, Bjorn, Ryan, or any member from here.

The advise you gave is pretty much wrong, maybe not all, but most of it. If you want to call me a "pompous clown" for calling you out, well I guess that is what I am.

Why negate your advise, because bad advise can actually kill a tree. If you had given good advise the outcome would have been completely different.