Japanese Black Pine
- Thread starter Chiang Cheng Kooi
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Smoke
Ignore-Amus
OK, pine 201
A little primer for the "what?" crowd.
Bonsai is all about movement. Movement introduces visual speed. No visual speed, no art. While the pine Greg posted is a very nice pine and I would love to own it, it is rather boring since the trunk line is linear and in one direction. No movement. Good taper but we can't tell if it has good branches because we can't see them. All we see is the same ole same ole green helmet.
This pine is hanging on my wall in my office. It is not a very large tree, and it has some really major flaws. But this tree has movement. It is not linear. It turns and turns again and then the apex makes a u-turn and finishes itself off as becoming the main branch. The canopy shape is beautiful and I never tire of looking at this pine. I also have a gorgeous photo of a formal upright pine by Kobayashi, but the pine is so flawless in its needle length and branch structure that the tree is boring. Not one curve in the whole tree.
A little primer for the "what?" crowd.
Bonsai is all about movement. Movement introduces visual speed. No visual speed, no art. While the pine Greg posted is a very nice pine and I would love to own it, it is rather boring since the trunk line is linear and in one direction. No movement. Good taper but we can't tell if it has good branches because we can't see them. All we see is the same ole same ole green helmet.
This pine is hanging on my wall in my office. It is not a very large tree, and it has some really major flaws. But this tree has movement. It is not linear. It turns and turns again and then the apex makes a u-turn and finishes itself off as becoming the main branch. The canopy shape is beautiful and I never tire of looking at this pine. I also have a gorgeous photo of a formal upright pine by Kobayashi, but the pine is so flawless in its needle length and branch structure that the tree is boring. Not one curve in the whole tree.
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Smoke
Ignore-Amus
Many might look at this tree and figure how they might get a trunk to do that. I can tell you that first wiggle in the trunk is key. You don'tbend that into the trunk later, it has to be set at the very beginning. How might you do it, simple. Start with seed, do a root layer on the seedling and grow for one year. Wire it and bend it 90 degrees at the soil line. It is vey important that the bend be made at the soil line and it has to be as drastic as possible. As the tree grows and gains girth the bend will dimenish and stretch out. It will become much like the pine we see in the picture.
These are scans from my Kyosuki Gun book on pines. These are some of the best books on bonsai I own and I can't read any of them. good thing I can do bonsai by pictures! Take a look at the sequence of this pine from seed to wired seedling. Notice how it is bent very tight almost in a cork screw shape. That first bend in the important part. In the next scan we see the tree much larger, and the tree is now undergoing chops for taper. It is easy to see how that very drastic bend has started to stretch out and look more natural as the trunk plumps up.
Any one familier with Gun and his books will note that his drawings are to scale and can be matched up exactly to the finished tree. Many are printed in the back of the book in color. I didn't check to see if this one was. I might later. Mr. Gun illustrates most of the bonsai books from Japan. His illustrations on the pages of Bonsai Today were for me, the best part of the magazine.
These are scans from my Kyosuki Gun book on pines. These are some of the best books on bonsai I own and I can't read any of them. good thing I can do bonsai by pictures! Take a look at the sequence of this pine from seed to wired seedling. Notice how it is bent very tight almost in a cork screw shape. That first bend in the important part. In the next scan we see the tree much larger, and the tree is now undergoing chops for taper. It is easy to see how that very drastic bend has started to stretch out and look more natural as the trunk plumps up.
Any one familier with Gun and his books will note that his drawings are to scale and can be matched up exactly to the finished tree. Many are printed in the back of the book in color. I didn't check to see if this one was. I might later. Mr. Gun illustrates most of the bonsai books from Japan. His illustrations on the pages of Bonsai Today were for me, the best part of the magazine.
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Smoke
Ignore-Amus
This last scan is an illustration taken from the Gun book showing some drastic bending, not unlike what we see from this poster as well as my small pine in the yamadori style. I think what is hard to conceptualize from the tree in this thread is the large out of scale foliage on those branches, It looks very unbalanced. But, taking a look at mine before bending looked much the same way.
I hope I have added something to this thread.
In my opinion....I like what he has done. Does it look like a bonsai....no....but it will........
Al
I hope I have added something to this thread.
In my opinion....I like what he has done. Does it look like a bonsai....no....but it will........
Al
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Smoke
Ignore-Amus
There have been a few photos posted in this thread of more developed pines. Both pines are very linear in design and show only a very straight trunk.
There are pictures of pines that look very good with very curved trunks not unlike this tree. In fact this photo would be very much like this tree in this thread would look like after about 8 years.
There are pictures of pines that look very good with very curved trunks not unlike this tree. In fact this photo would be very much like this tree in this thread would look like after about 8 years.
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Alain BERTRAND
Mame
I agree with Smoke about the interest of Gun's books. They are dedicated to "mini" bonsai that is, smaller than shohin. Information shown in the JPB book can be used as well for scots pine.
He and his wife run a web site http://mini-bonsai.com (with some pages in english) that is worth seeing. They used to run a small forum but they have stopped, due to lack of time.
He and his wife run a web site http://mini-bonsai.com (with some pages in english) that is worth seeing. They used to run a small forum but they have stopped, due to lack of time.
Chiang Cheng Kooi
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Yes you are right it does look like a hindu god "Dancing Shiva" n i shall call it "Dancing Shiva"
Chiang Cheng Kooi
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Fair answer, he has to start from somewhere
Chiang Cheng Kooi
Seedling
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Thanks for the for all the comment, these are my other 2 pine of the same age (2 years 6 month)
I am 47 years old living in a flat with limited space,i love medium or small pine with movement n curve. If i do not start now i will not get anything later. Tru trail n error i manage to grow black pines for more then 2 years, never the less i have kill a handful when i was ignorant about their need, I do not thik cold dormancy is the reason of black pine dying in tropical Malaysia becoz i had seen a couple of 5 years old black pine with 3 inchs trunk (not as bonsai) growing in our local a nursery.
I think tree with sinus or bankan shape trunk is quite natural as you can see in the internet imej a number of yamadori actualy have these type of trunk.
Last week i decide to bent the slating pine to a semi cascade the style i favour more
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tmmason10
Omono
It is nice to see that this topic ended up having a postive vibe, with really great insight from Smoke. Smoke, please continue to post your knowledge like this we all appreciate it.
CCK-I think that for the pines being so young they look good and in a few years they should look fine. Since you have three, I would take Smoke's advice and try to squish one of them. Good luck on these and welcome to the forum.
CCK-I think that for the pines being so young they look good and in a few years they should look fine. Since you have three, I would take Smoke's advice and try to squish one of them. Good luck on these and welcome to the forum.
Bonsai Nut
Nuttier than your average Nut
Yes. The pine I posted was intended to be an example of results that can be accomplished in a short time from seed following a specific process for developing nebari, trunk and bark. Who KNOWS what it looks like behind all those needles
It is not intended to be an example of a finished bonsai There ARE a few styles where lack of movement (or movement in a singular direction) is desired - like formal upright, broom, slant. It is understanding when movement is desired and when it is not that is the key principle. "S" shaped trees are examples of trees designed with movement as the primary design philosophy - but the movement is unnatural and awkward. I know Al knows all of this - I am just posting these comments to build on what he said.Attila Soos
Omono
Great posts from Smoke.
In order to give advice, we need to know what the owner intends for a final image. If the final image is close to what we see today, it's not very attractive to my taste. But if the trunk is allowed to quadruple in size, then it may end up being an interesting tree, since the curves will fuse and smooth out to a certain degree. The only problem is that in the current bonsai pot, it will take 200 years. So, the first thing to do is to move the tree into a growing box (if growing in the ground is not an option). The other problem is that it needs more sacrifice branches down low, to speed up the growth. Since it is a young pine, that can be possible, with strong pruning. The mistake beginners make (besides growing trees in bonsai pots), is that they try to keep the tree look like a bonsai, even in the training phase. That makes it impossible to develop the tree with reasonable speed. Instead of worrying about the overall shape, the owner has to use techniques that target specific areas, such as developing nebari, trunk thickening, trunk taper, keeping foliage close to the trunk, stimulating new buds along the trunk, etc. The overall shape at this point is irrelevant, until the material is ready for the first styling, which could be many years away.
Regarding Harry's comments, I understand that some people prefer less curves, and are more confortable with a smooth and less dramatic design. But that is just a personal taste, and there are plenty of people who prefer a more dramatic design. I love both straight and contorted trees, and I think that it is fun to have a mix of different flavors. Some of the contorted trees have a very creative and interesting design, and I love them. Contorted is not the same as contrived. Contrived(=artificial-looking) is ugly. Contorted can look very natural (see trees that grow in harsh conditions), which is beautiful.
In order to give advice, we need to know what the owner intends for a final image. If the final image is close to what we see today, it's not very attractive to my taste. But if the trunk is allowed to quadruple in size, then it may end up being an interesting tree, since the curves will fuse and smooth out to a certain degree. The only problem is that in the current bonsai pot, it will take 200 years. So, the first thing to do is to move the tree into a growing box (if growing in the ground is not an option). The other problem is that it needs more sacrifice branches down low, to speed up the growth. Since it is a young pine, that can be possible, with strong pruning. The mistake beginners make (besides growing trees in bonsai pots), is that they try to keep the tree look like a bonsai, even in the training phase. That makes it impossible to develop the tree with reasonable speed. Instead of worrying about the overall shape, the owner has to use techniques that target specific areas, such as developing nebari, trunk thickening, trunk taper, keeping foliage close to the trunk, stimulating new buds along the trunk, etc. The overall shape at this point is irrelevant, until the material is ready for the first styling, which could be many years away.
Regarding Harry's comments, I understand that some people prefer less curves, and are more confortable with a smooth and less dramatic design. But that is just a personal taste, and there are plenty of people who prefer a more dramatic design. I love both straight and contorted trees, and I think that it is fun to have a mix of different flavors. Some of the contorted trees have a very creative and interesting design, and I love them. Contorted is not the same as contrived. Contrived(=artificial-looking) is ugly. Contorted can look very natural (see trees that grow in harsh conditions), which is beautiful.
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Mac
Seed
Thanks for your contributions, Smoke.
Speedy
Yamadori
Smoke. If you don't mind sharing some of your experience, could start a thread describing how you perform the squishing? Or if you already done so, could you point me (and others I'm sure) in the direction?
tmmason10
Omono
Bonsai Nut
Nuttier than your average Nut
Maybe we'll change Al's title to "Master Bonsai Squisher"
Chiang Cheng Kooi
Seedling
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All I ask is about the shape of the tree. Thanks for all the comment, of coure I read a lot about Black Pine from the internet when I decided to grow it. I know about the the techique of field grown the tree and sacrificial branch, but I do not had the luxury of doing so because I live in a flat (on the 7th floor) with limited space. I do know that plant grow very slow in the small pot. But because I love pine so much, I juz do what ever I can.
Even my pine is in a bonsai pot, it is actually an oversize n deep pot. If u notice shape of the pot even is square at its rim of 7inches by 7inches, it is taper on the base, this promote better drainage. Bigger pot olso means heavier pot, I do not want to strain my back.
Growing black pine in the tropical climate is not easy. Here in Malaysia we have 80 to 100 inches of rain in a year. Tropical storm with very heavy rain does not help becoz if u field grown the pine the root will probably rot becoz of the constanly very wet soil. Juz imagine if u live in Bangkok Thailand now with flooding water lasted for more than a few days. On top of this too much rain water will promote pine blight or fungas. Here u can get tropical rain storm every evening lasting for a month but is very predictable it usually rains after 5.00pm, so smaller pot means I can move my pot to a dryier place.
Even our tropical sun can pose a problem too. The pine seedling has to be grown a tanslusent canopy in the nursery be coz the the above 30 Celsius intense sun ray n the above 90% humidity from 12.00 pm until 3.00 pm will heated up the pot (do not use black or dark colour pot for this matter) n might kill the root. Too much sun will cause the needle to turn yellow too.
Of couse I know what I am doing otherwise my pine will not last for more than two yeas in Malaysia. I had had ask a few bonsai master in Malayisa why they do not grow black pine, the answer is the same “ black pine will die in Malaysia”. I guest this is the challenge I take.
I have been to Japan n scroll the net looking for a black pine growing in a formal upright form as what bonsaist styled, I still have not find one, so if one think it is not natural for black pine to grow in a spiral trunk is not natural same goes to a formal upright style (but if u can produce a picture I will take back my word). Those black pine u see in the Japanese garden, park, temple are do not grow in the natural shape either becoz they are prune n shape by human
Even my pine is in a bonsai pot, it is actually an oversize n deep pot. If u notice shape of the pot even is square at its rim of 7inches by 7inches, it is taper on the base, this promote better drainage. Bigger pot olso means heavier pot, I do not want to strain my back.
Growing black pine in the tropical climate is not easy. Here in Malaysia we have 80 to 100 inches of rain in a year. Tropical storm with very heavy rain does not help becoz if u field grown the pine the root will probably rot becoz of the constanly very wet soil. Juz imagine if u live in Bangkok Thailand now with flooding water lasted for more than a few days. On top of this too much rain water will promote pine blight or fungas. Here u can get tropical rain storm every evening lasting for a month but is very predictable it usually rains after 5.00pm, so smaller pot means I can move my pot to a dryier place.
Even our tropical sun can pose a problem too. The pine seedling has to be grown a tanslusent canopy in the nursery be coz the the above 30 Celsius intense sun ray n the above 90% humidity from 12.00 pm until 3.00 pm will heated up the pot (do not use black or dark colour pot for this matter) n might kill the root. Too much sun will cause the needle to turn yellow too.
Of couse I know what I am doing otherwise my pine will not last for more than two yeas in Malaysia. I had had ask a few bonsai master in Malayisa why they do not grow black pine, the answer is the same “ black pine will die in Malaysia”. I guest this is the challenge I take.
I have been to Japan n scroll the net looking for a black pine growing in a formal upright form as what bonsaist styled, I still have not find one, so if one think it is not natural for black pine to grow in a spiral trunk is not natural same goes to a formal upright style (but if u can produce a picture I will take back my word). Those black pine u see in the Japanese garden, park, temple are do not grow in the natural shape either becoz they are prune n shape by human
Speedy
Yamadori
Oops, sorry Smoke apparently I wasn't the first to ask. Reading through it now, thank you.
Mojosan
Mame
I've been gone a while - been a busy summer - but I see that some things around here haven't changed!
Hello everybody.
Hello everybody.
New bie here, not sure should i revive this thread... Chiang you from Malaysia? I'm from Malaysia too.. you can try growing from seed but the success rate is very low and luck i thin. I love pine too
First photo with 2 pine success. was 3 initially but manage to save 2 after came back from holiday.
after a week 1 pine got rot root (over water i suspect) and left 1 only... another pic is showing the only pine left and growing.. just change the soil, hope it's growing well..
First photo with 2 pine success. was 3 initially but manage to save 2 after came back from holiday.
after a week 1 pine got rot root (over water i suspect) and left 1 only... another pic is showing the only pine left and growing.. just change the soil, hope it's growing well..
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