Japanese maple forest vs clump

[It's Kev]

Ordered me a few JM seedlings, was gonna choose one direction but I might lean towards another, so I’d like to hear from all you pro’s or vets or whatever.

My order hasn’t arrived yet, but in the meantime I’d like to hear what you prefer and why

GO!

 

[Adair M]

Er... what’s wrong with “Both”?

 

[It's Kev]

Er... what’s wrong with “Both”?

Only got 7 or 8, and my ledge is almost full

 

[rich815]

Er... what’s wrong with “Both”?

My initial thought exactly. They can both look great done right.

 

[rockm]

A few things to think about --- "Forests" of seedlings, planted closely together eventually become clumps with a fused rootmass. Seedling forests with individual trees spaced widely rarely look good as their trunks are too spindly to carry off the image. Good and great forest compositions use more mature material...

 

[Adair M]

A few things to think about --- "Forests" of seedlings, planted closely together eventually become clumps with a fused rootmass. Seedling forests with individual trees spaced widely rarely look good as their trunks are too spindly to carry off the image. Good and great forest compositions use more mature material...

I’m sorry, I have to disagree. This forest, started 20 years ago by Tom Bjornholm, has “fused together” in that the roots are all entertangled, was started as seedlings and is a beautiful forest.

 

[penumbra]

Back to the post, there is no right or wrong, do what you want to do but do it right. Or do what Adair said and do them both. Keep in mind that you will need different sized plants to make it believable.

 

[Adair M]

Back to the post, there is no right or wrong, do what you want to do but do it right. Or do what Adair said and do them both. Keep in mind that you will need different sized plants to make it believable.

Sure, I agree that using different sized plants is better, but it takes several years to make a bonsai, regardless. So, even starting with similar sized plants, success will depend upon the training they get over the years. Selectively letting some grow more than others will create the diversity to make an interesting forest or clump.

 

[Maloghurst]

Only got 7 or 8, and my ledge is almost full

Then you don’t have enough for a forest. 7-9 is perfect for a clump. Some will eventually die off.

 

[rockm]

I’m sorry, I have to disagree. This forest, started 20 years ago by Tom Bjornholm, has “fused together” in that the roots are all entertangled, was started as seedlings and is a beautiful forest.

View attachment 294664

Well, um, it didn't look like this twenty years ago. I have a similar forest made initially from seedlings. It has fused surface roots. It took 20 years to do it though. Perhaps a better way to say it is that seedlings don't make an IMMEDIATELY effective forest, takes a while...here is the forest about ten years ago...

 

[Adair M]

Well, um, it didn't look like this twenty years ago. I have a similar forest made initially from seedlings. It has fused surface roots. It took 20 years to do it though. Perhaps a better way to say it is that seedlings don't make an IMMEDIATELY effective forest, takes a while...here is the forest about ten years ago...

Well, sure! It takes a while for any bonsai to create an effective image! Lol!!!

 

[It's Kev]

@Adair M and @penumbra said different sized trees. Should they be different length only or also different thickness, like taking seedlings from 2 consecutive years instead of them all being from the same year? Or just hack-n-slash to have the strongest growth around the middle and weaker ones on the sides?

 

[penumbra]

Yes, height and girth, however you can get the job done. Look at some pictures of other clumps / forests. Look at wild trees.

 

[Adair M]

The tallest tree should also be the thickest.

But, yes, the starting material should be cut to have varying heights. Once you gat it established, then you have to keep some trees trimmed back, and let others grow to develop the variance in sizes.

This is one of my forests:



Created from seedlings. I want the center tree to be thicker, so I’m going to let an apex branch grow unpinched. That will thicken that trunk. You can just barely see it poking out the top.

 

[It's Kev]

They’re here

so I made this post after I ordered my trees, back then I was still leaning towards clump.
There was the option of 5mm and 10mm shoots. Got the 5mm shoots because I figured thinner ones will fuse easier since I only have pots. Thinking I should stick with that.

Thanks for playing

 

[Shibui]

I would have asked for 2 or 3 of the ticker ones and the rest as thin. Reasons given above. Both forest and clump need variation in trunk thickness. If you know what you are doing you can grow some to get thicker than the others but always easier to start with some variation if possible.
In pots it will take longer but you have the luxury of control. Control over placement, control over shape (which can be critical in either group or clump), control over thickening. Be aware that outer trunks in a clump or forest are inclined to grow faster than the inner ones because their roots ave more access to unused outer areas of the pot. inner trunks really need to be thicker and taller so be prepared to control growth of the outer trees and encourage inner.
If going for clump you will need to work out some way to hold the trunks close together. Without constriction they usually just push each other away as they thicken. Need to be forced to fuse the trunks. Grafting tape is good because it holds them together but is flexible enough that severe marks are avoided. Wire is not suitable as it quickly bites in as trunks thicken and will leave scars or kill trunks if not removed in time.

Don't be frightened to cut those ,long roots before potting. JM are quite good at growing new roots to replace any that are removed.

 

[It's Kev]

@Shibui i probably should’ve taken some photos along the way but I get a bit one track minded once I get my hands on soil. I did cut all the long roots, making sure I have enough fibrous ones left over. As for variety and thickness, I probably have to wing it, maybe try to give the outer trunks a hard-ish prune once they leaf out.
Esei-en’s video said that the trees you choose should all be related, so I figured that the older/thicker ones would’ve come from a different batch... (says the guy who bought this online from 2000km away with no control over what he’s getting)

 

[Maloghurst]

The choice was made when you only bought 7 seedlings imo.

 

[Forsoothe!]

While I agree that you don't want all the trees to have too close of an appearance, too different doesn't work either. I see quite a few Larch forest made of collected trees that have one or more really out of scale with the majority and to make them mimic being scale they are chopped at the top. I find these artistically wanting. Nothing, is more unconvincing than a tree with no taper and a flat stump top in a forest. All my forests happen to be of collected saplings, mostly of similar age and size. In a pot, they will grow at different rates depending upon location in the pot just like they do in forest, except you can favor some to be taller, shorter, wider to the left or right, forward or rearwards, as you choose, and over time. Kevin's are too small right now to do anything with other than give as much space and good growing conditions as available to grow them individually to get to at least >1/4"/7mm, or bigger before assembling a forest. Of course, if he can stumble onto another few larger brothers in the meantime, great!

Assembling a forest of candidates too small will necessarily have trees too close to have enough headspace in years forward. Insufficient space for some individualism of canopies means just one united mass of a top and essentially no room for layers of branches open to the front, too. Wait until the trees get to the point of filling up some real space, or waste a lot of years, because they will grow very slow when put in a forest pot. I overpot my forests for beneficial growth, and repot up over time to continue that. And, they continue to grow. Growth leads to taper and the kind of mature appearance I want. It's been said, "In the end, we all get what we really want", meaning, we end up with a reflection of the amount of effort we have been willing to exert. Want a little, or want a lot...

 

[It's Kev]

Aight, so these things are budding out and they’re all different. Should I have a technicoloured tree or separate them in autumn?