Japanese Maple Project

[ml_work]

A friend had set out some JM for landscape and had a couple they did not feel the leaves were in good health. So they planted them in front of their shop. They told me I could have one to "play" with as they knew I worked with bonsai. I think it is bloodgood, do not know age, it was nursery grown. It has not been in the ground long, they just pulled it up, you can tell they had left the soil on the roots and just put in ground.

I plan to cut it back at about 17" just above the first Y or should it be higher at the second Y at 23". When I say first Y I did not mean the lower branch on the right side, but should it go or stay?
Would the branches I cut off be of any use like start air layer above the cut?
I do not have a place setup to put it in the ground, I plan to use the lagre pot in the picture, to let it grow the trunk to about 1.6 inches to 2.0, now it is about 1 inch. I do not have enough bonsai soil to fill the pot.
Open to any ideas, I know it needs to get back into some kind of soil tomorrow and the cuts would be in the spring.



Thanks

 

[ml_work]

Time to Pot

I will be moving this tree to a new pot tomorrow, changed my mind about using the existing pot. Will use a large one that has been cut down lower, will cut the large root ball in half and spread the roots. As the soil has settled this winter it appears there may be some sort of nebari hidden, will see tomorrow. I have a picture of what I am thinking about for cutting back. It is hard to tell from the picture but the lower limb on the right, I have it marked 2 time. First close to the trunk and the second is out just past the small shoot, you can see if you look close. My thought is the second would have a start with the small shoot already started. Or should it be closer to the trunk? Or take it off all the way? I am looking at taking the top limb on the left side off flush at the split. You cannot see in the picture but I think the graft is all the way at the bottom. All sugesstions are welcome, but welcome soon, I will be doing something tomorrow even if it is wrong.

Thanks

 

[edprocoat]

Michael, if you keep all of it and let it grow it will thicken your trunk much faster, unless you are going for a small tree.

ed

 

[sikadelic]

First off, sorry you never received any initial help with your first post. I know that can be very frustrating.

What is your plan for the tree? If it were mine, I would air layer what I knew I wasnt keeping and let it thicken up. Maybe layer some upper branches so you can have more to practice with and let those lower branches run out and get plenty of foliage to help your base thicken.

Have you had a look at the roots yet?

 

[Adair M]

Bloodgood maples don't make very good bonsai. Their internodes are too long. If you don't know, that means the branches will be too far apart, it will never develop a lot of twigs.

And, it makes it harder to get it to do what you want. It's frustrating material. Even experts have difficulty with it.

I tell you this because if you are new to bonsai, it's much more rewarding to work with a variety that naturally responds to training. Even material that DOES train "easily" can be a challenge! The beginning Bonsai enthusiast needs to learn techniques, when to do what, and what to expect.

On material like "blood good" you can do "all the right things" and it just not respond like other Japanese maples would, so a beginner might think they didn't do it right, but they actually did.

It's just a bad variety of maple to use for bonsai.

I have two large landscape bloodgood trees. And I have seedlings under them. I've tried all sorts of ways to makes something of them. They just don't respond we'll.

It just so happened I was working on my trees yesterday with Boon, and bloodgood came up in conversation, and he just said "doesn't work for bonsai".

I tell you this so that. You won't get frustrated trying to learn bonsai using this stock.

 

[GrimLore]

I would try to Identify it, perhaps contact the nursery it was purchased from or wait until it has foliage so we can ID it better. Could be it is not a blood good...

Grimmy

 

[Poink88]

... it makes it harder to get it to do what you want. It's frustrating material. Even experts have difficulty with it.

...it's much more rewarding to work with a variety that naturally responds to training. Even material that DOES train "easily" can be a challenge! The beginning Bonsai enthusiast needs to learn techniques, when to do what, and what to expect.

On material like "blood good" you can do "all the right things" and it just not respond like other Japanese maples would, so a beginner might think they didn't do it right, but they actually did.

...I tell you this so that. You won't get frustrated trying to learn bonsai using this stock.

Listen to the man...sage advise right there. Priceless, if I may say so myself.

 

[ml_work]

Ed, thanks for the advice I realize it will grow quicker if left as is but may be hard to keep in a smaller shallower pot if left as tall as it is. I have found over the past couple of years that I have been doing this that my well water has been (or I think) a Big problem with maples. They leaf out in spring and then leaves turn brown fall off and new leaves come out. As the cycle continues it kills the tree or maybe it is me. I have tried them in full sun, shade, morning sun only, nothing seemed to work. So I started watering with rain water I catch from the roof, I had a small one make it through the summer. Last summer I tried a couple more with rain water only and they made it (same thing with Chinese Elms). So I have the maples at the edge of /under some pines, they get good morning light and shade afternoon and rain water only. Which brings me back to the large pot, I have to take the water to each tree and if we have a dry summer I run out of water.


"First off, sorry you never received any initial help with your first post. I know that can be very frustrating"
Thanks Jarrod - I thought maybe I had offened someone or maybe the entire fourm!
So to answer you and Grimmy, I did ask the person I got it from what variety it is, they were unsure. Of the 2 I had to pick from the other was very noticable where it had been grafted. From my understanding these are grafted because the root of the other tree are stronger. So air layer would not work was my thinking. It has a few small leaves opening now, it is enough light out now maybe I can get a picture (gotta get out there I have a whole day planned Playing with Trees).

Adair - I will not post all of your reply, but agree with everything you said, Trust and Respect your knowledge as I follow your post here. I am always open to creative criticism with anything in Life or post made here. I think I / we need to figure out what kind of maple it is to better know the direction to go. I would like a JM as yard tree if that is were it works best, or cut back for small / not bonsai tree in pot on my deck.

Thanks to all!

 

[ml_work]

What kind?

a couple of pictures of new leaves and last years, any idea what kind this is?

Thanks

 

[chris38383838]

I have the same problem as shown on ml_work's photos with my japanese maples. As the leaves grow in the spring, they leaf out and then they seem to stop growing. To me the problem seems to be in the roots, because the leaves seem perfectly in good shape, then the news branches begin leaning down like they are not receiving enough sap from the roots.

Does someone have a clue on what may be happening? I strongly suspect the frequency at which i water my trees in the spring... I water every day but maybe I shouldn't?

 

[Poink88]

I strongly suspect the frequency at which i water my trees in the spring... I water every day but maybe I shouldn't?

Can only be answered if we know your substrate and other factors your tree is subjected/exposed to. Sorry.

 

[chris38383838]

Ok! So, my maples are in a 6 x 8 greenhouse snap & grow greenhouse heated with a 1500W Ritetemp heater:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Soleil-1500-Watt-Forced-Air-Electric-Portable-Heater-LH-875A/202301600.

I try to keep the inside of my greenhouse at a 54°F, 12°C temperature, but with the sun it goes up to 68°F 20°C in the day. I'm up in Canada, so the weather outside still goes down to -11°F, -24°C at times, and my heater can't really keep up so in those nights the temperature inside my greenhouse drops to 39°C, even though most of the walls of my greenhouse are insulated with 2'' styrofoam panels.

I water every day with a garden hand sprayer or with a watering can. I make sure every tree gets enough water. I fertilize my trees with some 20-7-10 smartcote and chicken manure that I put into fertilizer baskets. My susbtrate is a 1/3 perlite, 1/3 composted pine bark and 1/3 gravel (not limestone), wich usually works really fine for me and all the people I know. Some of the maples that have the problem were repotted this year, and some weren't.

I have something like 14 japanese maples, and on 10 of them the tips of the new shoots are leaning down, the most problematic one being a large kiyohime on which I did a severe root pruning to put it in a bonsai container this winter. It's leaves have kind of the same appearance than on ml_work's photos, but some are still alive. As I said previously, the leaves do not seem to receive enough sap from the roots...

Chris

 

[chris38383838]

The trees receive moderate sun exposure from 8 am to 16h pm. I'll put some pictures when I get home tonight, but the leaves look like the two first pictures of ml_work's last post.

 

[chansen]

I try to keep the inside of my greenhouse at a 54°F, 12°C temperature, but with the sun it goes up to 68°F 20°C in the day. I'm up in Canada, so the weather outside still goes down to -11°F, -24°C at times, and my heater can't really keep up so in those nights the temperature inside my greenhouse drops to 39°C, even though most of the walls of my greenhouse are insulated with 2'' styrofoam panels.

I water every day with a garden hand sprayer or with a watering can. I make sure every tree gets enough water. I fertilize my trees with some 20-7-10 smartcote and chicken manure that I put into fertilizer baskets. My susbtrate is a 1/3 perlite, 1/3 composted pine bark and 1/3 gravel (not limestone), wich usually works really fine for me and all the people I know. Some of the maples that have the problem were repotted this year, and some weren't.

Chris

Chris -

Just to be clear, are you watering every day in the winter? I'm assuming that you aren't, and that your watering routine described above is referring to what you do during the growing season, but I just want to be clear. Do you water during the winter?

With the temperatures you maintain during the winter, there will still be some (slow) root growth. If the trees are completely dry during that time you will encounter problems. I did the same one winter when I moved from an area close to the mountains where I received more snow, to an area in the valley floor that received much less. I lost a lot of trees that winter because they dried out too much.

ml_work -

Have you had your well water tested? What soil mix are you using? If the problem you describe happens not only during spring, then I would definitely look at the roots/soil/watering routine. If it is just during spring, I would look for a correlation with late spring freezes/frosts. I don't know your climate well enough to determine whether that would be an issue, but once the tree starts pushing in the spring, they loose their winter hardiness and a late freeze can kill them. I have experienced that in the past with some maples, so ever since I watch things closely in the spring.

Good luck to you both!

 

[Poink88]

I believe you are over watering. Water only once the top inch of soil is dry otherwise, you risk root rot. Maybe take a quick look...pull one out and see w/o really disturbing the rootball then just put it back in if there is no problem.

 

[ml_work]

Chris - The pictures are not of my problem trees, read the entire post as it will explain. The picture is of the dormat tree sitting under carpot this winter. The problem my JM have in spring and summer does not cause the leaves to "hang". The leaves get brown on the end and curl up and die and fall off. The tree produces more and it happens again, and it is my thought after a couple of years of this cycle it has killed them.

Christian - I have never had waterd tested, talked about it but never got around to it. My problem is not frost or freeze, it has happend well into the summer. From what I can tell it is the well water, I had a couple of small JM make it the past 2 summers using just rain water. For the most part I have purchased bonsai soil from Brussels, last year I mixed some myself. Could not get any lava rock so I used pine bark and turface. I have used the well water before it goes through the filter for my home, last year I purchased a small filter that I saw in a post on here. I will test one of the JM with the well water through the filter to see if it helps, but may wait one more year.

As for my JM that I started this about, I found out it is bloodgood. From what some have stated it may not be a good tree for bonsai. I think I will give it a try with the understanding of its limits. Really it was given to me "see what you can do with this" from the owner, so I will see. Thanks to all for the information.

 

[chansen]

Christian - I have never had waterd tested, talked about it but never got around to it. My problem is not frost or freeze, it has happend well into the summer. From what I can tell it is the well water, I had a couple of small JM make it the past 2 summers using just rain water. For the most part I have purchased bonsai soil from Brussels, last year I mixed some myself. Could not get any lava rock so I used pine bark and turface. I have used the well water before it goes through the filter for my home, last year I purchased a small filter that I saw in a post on here. I will test one of the JM with the well water through the filter to see if it helps, but may wait one more year.

ml_work -

I have intended to test my water for a while as well, and have still yet to get to it. I know exactly where you are coming from. I'm not too familiar with the soil mix from Brussells, is it a heavier 'dirt' like mix, or high in inorganics? It could be that you are overwatering if the soil is high in organics/slow draining, but the experiment with rain water only does seem to point to the quality of the well water. I believe root rot has more to do with a lack of air, rather than an overabundance of water. Unless of course you are watering less with the rain water and more with well water. When it gets very hot here, I water 3-4 times a day and the trees don't skip a beat, but I use a 100% inorganic mix so the soil does not compact and new air is introduced with each watering. In fact, in one season my tridents grew roots out of their pots and fully colonized the undersides of the pots that were directly adjacent to the wood bench slats.

Keep at it until you find the right solution. I know how frustrating it can be when you're constantly losing trees. But I also know how rewarding it is once you get those things dialed in and your trees start thriving.

 

[Paradox]

If the green leaves in the first 2 pictures are typical of the leaves coming out on this tree, then I dont think this is a bloodgood. The red leaves in the last 3 pictures are too shriveled to see what they are.

These are bloodgood leaves

It is not unusual for box store trees to be labed incorrectly. It could be another species of maple that they just put a bloodgood tag on because its what they had and the price is the same.

 

[Eric Group]

a couple of pictures of new leaves and last years, any idea what kind this is?

Thanks

The new leaves look nothing like Bloodgood... Looks like some sort of lace leaf variety IMO. Hard to tell what the other leaves are, but they seem to have an odd shape- longer than most Japanese Maples.

If it is a Lace Leaf variety, it is DEFFINITELY grafted stock- almost all nurseries grow them that way. It will probably grow slower- even on the grafted root base- than your standard Japanese Maple... The leaves on them are usually a bit more delicate and prone to leaf burn from wind or extreme heat/sun, which is already a problem for even the most vigorous Japanese Maple species.

 

[ml_work]

" I'm not too familiar with the soil mix from Brussells, is it a heavier 'dirt' like mix, or high in inorganics? It could be that you are overwatering if the soil is high in organics/slow draining, but the experiment with rain water only does seem to point to the quality of the well water."

Christian - the Brussels soil in dirt, bark and lava rock for the most part, it drains well, but hold some water. Which works best for me, I can only water once a day with the rain water and that is end of day after work. I do have a timer and drip system that comes on mid day and end of day but it is connect to well water. The tirdent maple I tested with rain water the past 2 years was in fast draining soil when I purchased it, very small tree, I watered it daily for my testing. The JM I started testing last year was in larger pot and the bark / turface mix did not need water daily.

Eric and Paradox, thanks for the info and your thoughts on the leaves. I plan to get the tree in a pot first thing saturday morning. Will have better picture of the leaves and hopefully some new leaves in a few weeks.

Thanks to Everyone!