Japanese Persimmon (Diospyros kaki)

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Any got the Japanese version as a bonsai -

Japanese Persimmon (Diospyros kaki)​

 

NaoTK

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I have many in progress, but here are some famous reference photos. They tend to be large trees and often literati-like. Keep in mind they are dioecious before you invest time and energy in a male.

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Same tree in 2018. its huge.
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Shogun610

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Got this one. Buds w fruit for next season are bigger than just leaf buds, I’m in 6b , so when it’s below freezing I have to take it in unheated garage it’s only hardy to zone 7 possibly 6b but not taking chances. Has a few side shoots , so will separate during repot. Or keep one for a mother / daughter style…
 

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NaoTK

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Got this one. Buds w fruit for next season are bigger than just leaf buds, I’m in 6b , so when it’s below freezing I have to take it in unheated garage it’s only hardy to zone 7 possibly 6b but not taking chances. Has a few side shoots , so will separate during repot. Or keep one for a mother / daughter style…
But that's not a kaki!
 

Bonsai Nut

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I have many in progress, but here are some famous reference photos. They tend to be large trees and often literati-like. Keep in mind they are dioecious before you invest time and energy in a male.

Same tree in 2018. its huge.
You are mixing photos of Diospyrus kaki (Japanese persimmon) with photos of Diospyrus rhombifolia (princess persimmon). There are a number of different persimmon species out there, and numerous cultivars. There is even an American native (Diospyrus viginiana) that grows in my area:

unnamed.jpg

Back to the OP's subject. In California I had several different Diospyrus kaki cultivars in my orchard. I never considered them for bonsai because of the size of the fruit - even the smallest of which I considered to be relatively large for bonsai. However if you were willing to commit to a larger tree (like 36" or taller) I think you could pull it off. One possible benefit would be that the fruit (depending on cultivar) might be more or less edible, unlike that of princess persimmon. In particular, Diospyrus kaki 'Fuyu' is remarkable because it is both non-astringent, and lacks a core and seeds:

shutterstock_2195585.jpg

As a landscape ornamental, I don't think it can be beat. As a bonsai... not sure. Similar challenges as growing a bonsai apple tree - and wanting to display the fruit. I think @NaoTK 's second photo is the nicest I have ever seen!
 
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NaoTK

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You are mixing photos of Diospyrus kaki (Japanese persimmon) with photos of Diospyrus rhombifolia (princess persimmon). There are a number of different persimmon species out there, and numerous cultivars. There is even an American native (Diospyrus viginiana) that grows in my area:

View attachment 406233

Back to the OP's subject. In California I had several different Diospyrus kaki cultivars in my orchard. I never considered them for bonsai because of the size of the fruit - even the smallest of which I considered to be relatively large for bonsai. However if you were willing to commit to a larger tree (like 36" or taller) I think you could pull it off. One possible benefit would be that the fruit (depending on cultivar) might be more or less edible, unlike that of princess persimmon. In particular, Diospyrus kaki 'Fuyu' is remarkable because it is both non-astringent, and lacks a core and seeds:

View attachment 406234

As a landscape ornamental, I don't think it can be beat. As a bonsai... not sure. Similar challenges as growing a bonsai apple tree - and wanting to display the fruit. I think @NaoTK 's second photo is the nicest I have ever seen!
No, they are all kaki. The rhombifolia-looking ones are actually yamagaki. Yamagaki variety is elongated and smaller, but if you saw them in person the difference in scale is obvious. Also just look at the bark. The most common lookalike is the lotus persimmon
 

Bonsai Nut

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No, they are all kaki. The rhombifolia-looking ones are actually yamagaki. Yamagaki variety is elongated and smaller, but if you saw them in person the difference in scale is obvious. Also just look at the bark. The most common lookalike is the lotus persimmon
Interesting. I have never seen one, and they don't come up in a Google search. I agree the bark is completely different.
 

Shogun610

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Is the persimmon similar to that of how Ume’s are collected or developed? Idk what podcast I was listening to, but someone said Ume are popular around New Years, and enthusiasts in Japan usually collect Ume’s from people front porch as they’re overgrown and old grown in a terracotta pot. Is that how persimmon are developed in Japan? From similar to that of a porch ornamental tree before it’s used as bonsai?
 

Canada Bonsai

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Is the persimmon similar to that of how Ume’s are collected or developed? Idk what podcast I was listening to, but someone said Ume are popular around New Years, and enthusiasts in Japan usually collect Ume’s from people front porch as they’re overgrown and old grown in a terracotta pot. Is that how persimmon are developed in Japan? From similar to that of a porch ornamental tree before it’s used as bonsai?

That is not how *most* Ume are developed in Japan. In Japan, as anywhere else in the world, there are all sorts of people who try all sorts of things. I have no doubt that starting with New Years Ume trees happens, but it represents a small minority of the trees being trained as bonsai. Pot training, field growing, and harvesting yamadori and yardadori are common for Ume.

The persimmons most commonly trained as bonsai, Diospyros rhombifolia (not Kaki) are most often propagated by root cutting, or by grafting onto root cuttings or seedlings. For some cultivars, cuttings and air layers are also possible. You will see the odd 'yardadori', but they do not heal well, and deadwood is not typically part of their aesthetic. Another thing worth noting is that they were introduce to Japan in the mid 1980's, and so the prospect of true 'yamadori' at this point is still slim to none.
 

Shogun610

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That is not how *most* Ume are developed in Japan. In Japan, as anywhere else in the world, there are all sorts of people who try all sorts of things. I have no doubt that starting with New Years Ume trees happens, but it represents a small minority of the trees being trained as bonsai. Pot training, field growing, and harvesting yamadori and yardadori are common for Ume.

The persimmons most commonly trained as bonsai, Diospyros rhombifolia (not Kaki) are most often propagated by root cutting, or by grafting onto root cuttings or seedlings. For some cultivars, cuttings and air layers are also possible. You will see the odd 'yardadori', but they do not heal well, and deadwood is not typically part of their aesthetic. Another thing worth noting is that they were introduce to Japan in the mid 1980's, and so the prospect of true 'yamadori' at this point is still slim to none.
Yeah I understand the root cuttings and Ume field grown etc. but I was listening to someone speak on very old Ume with deadwood , I didn’t know yamadori for Ume still existed I thought those groves are protected or something
 

NaoTK

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Interesting. I have never seen one, and they don't come up in a Google search. I agree the bark is completely different.

Try searching "山柿" it is the wild-type astringent cultivar found in the mountains of Japan. Another fun name is "saru nakase" or "to make a monkey cry" from the bitterness, and that's also a common children's story about persimmons.

Yamagaki may be peeled and hung up to dry to make them sweet and edible hoshigaki
1635906224193.png

fun fact: "saru suberi" is "to make a monkey slip" a.k.a. crape myrtle because the bark is so slippery
 

Potawatomi13

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Is the persimmon similar to that of how Ume’s are collected or developed? Idk what podcast I was listening to, but someone said Ume are popular around New Years, and enthusiasts in Japan usually collect Ume’s from people front porch as they’re overgrown and old grown in a terracotta pot. Is that how persimmon are developed in Japan? From similar to that of a porch ornamental tree before it’s used as bonsai?
So funny.. Tree thieves seemed to be your subject until reading post😂😌.
 

Potawatomi13

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I have many in progress, but here are some famous reference photos. They tend to be large trees and often literati-like. Keep in mind they are dioecious before you invest time and energy in a male.

View attachment 406214

Same tree in 2018. its huge.
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You the man! Nice trees🥰. Anywhere near Eugene by chance?
 

Potawatomi13

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You are mixing photos of Diospyrus kaki (Japanese persimmon) with photos of Diospyrus rhombifolia (princess persimmon). There are a number of different persimmon species out there, and numerous cultivars. There is even an American native (Diospyrus viginiana) that grows in my area:

View attachment 406233

Back to the OP's subject. In California I had several different Diospyrus kaki cultivars in my orchard. I never considered them for bonsai because of the size of the fruit - even the smallest of which I considered to be relatively large for bonsai. However if you were willing to commit to a larger tree (like 36" or taller) I think you could pull it off. One possible benefit would be that the fruit (depending on cultivar) might be more or less edible, unlike that of princess persimmon. In particular, Diospyrus kaki 'Fuyu' is remarkable because it is both non-astringent, and lacks a core and seeds:

View attachment 406234

As a landscape ornamental, I don't think it can be beat. As a bonsai... not sure. Similar challenges as growing a bonsai apple tree - and wanting to display the fruit. I think @NaoTK 's second photo is the nicest I have ever seen!
Interesting size of fruit comment. Consider on tiny/very small size Bonsai even flowers/fruit of Crab Apples, possibly others out of scale. Nevertheless is considered OK. However even on larger trees most smallish or normal size fruit considered bad scale:rolleyes:? Personally consider present trees stunning as is.
 

Maiden69

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Try searching "山柿" it is the wild-type astringent cultivar found in the mountains of Japan. Another fun name is "saru nakase" or "to make a monkey cry" from the bitterness, and that's also a common children's story about persimmons.

Yamagaki may be peeled and hung up to dry to make them sweet and edible hoshigaki


fun fact: "saru suberi" is "to make a monkey slip" a.k.a. crape myrtle because the bark is so slippery
I always wanted to learn Japanese... I have never tried to because of how difficult their "alphabet" is. I have learned a few things here and there from Japanese friends and movies and decided to give the names you posted a try and just reinforced my belief that the language is not easy whatsoever. The last 2 sound identical with the exception of the pause between words. I learned to read and write basic Korean (with some of the complex forms) in a few hours, including the pronunciations... Japanese would take me forever.

From Google translate

saru nakase - さる 泣かせ - Monkey cry
Saru suberi - さる 滑り- Monkey slip
sarusuberi - サルスベリ- Crape Myrtle
 

Bonsai Nut

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Try searching "山柿" it is the wild-type astringent cultivar found in the mountains of Japan. Another fun name is "saru nakase" or "to make a monkey cry" from the bitterness, and that's also a common children's story about persimmons.
I am really surprised that persimmons are not more commonly available / grown here in the US. They are one of my favorite trees. It was very difficult to find a nursery in California that had them for sale... and they only had a few cultivars.
 

penumbra

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I see a lot of fruit in these pictures. Doesn't that mean seeds?
I planted some Princess Persimmon seeds year before last and the all germinated.
Can "kaki " be grown from seed?
 

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