Japanese Persimmon (Diospyros kaki)

[hinmo24t]

some of them have to be overly ripe to lose the tannin bitterness. like a soft tomato, and then it is sweet

other ones are sweet even when firmer, as they have less tannins naturally

 

[NaoTK]

I always wanted to learn Japanese... I have never tried to because of how difficult their "alphabet" is. I have learned a few things here and there from Japanese friends and movies and decided to give the names you posted a try and just reinforced my belief that the language is not easy whatsoever. The last 2 sound identical with the exception of the pause between words. I learned to read and write basic Korean (with some of the complex forms) in a few hours, including the pronunciations... Japanese would take me forever.

From Google translate

saru nakase - さる 泣かせ - Monkey cry
Saru suberi - さる 滑り- Monkey slip
sarusuberi - サルスベリ- Crape Myrtle

The Japanese LOVE homophone puns.
Check this one out from Instagram a few weeks ago.
It's a carbonated soda called "Oomiya Bonsai da!"
meaning 1: Oomiya Bonsai da! "It's an Oomiya bonsai!"
meaning 2: Oomiya bon-CIDER ...eye roll



speaking of soda, did you guys know the most popular soda in Taiwan is Black Pine Sarsaparilla soda? It's really great, like Dr. Pepper. I think it's just called Black Pine.

 

[SilenceDogwood]

That is not how *most* Ume are developed in Japan. In Japan, as anywhere else in the world, there are all sorts of people who try all sorts of things. I have no doubt that starting with New Years Ume trees happens, but it represents a small minority of the trees being trained as bonsai. Pot training, field growing, and harvesting yamadori and yardadori are common for Ume.

The persimmons most commonly trained as bonsai, Diospyros rhombifolia (not Kaki) are most often propagated by root cutting, or by grafting onto root cuttings or seedlings. For some cultivars, cuttings and air layers are also possible. You will see the odd 'yardadori', but they do not heal well, and deadwood is not typically part of their aesthetic. Another thing worth noting is that they were introduce to Japan in the mid 1980's, and so the prospect of true 'yamadori' at this point is still slim to none.

Good sir,

Ume is not native Japan, but was introduced from China. Therefore, most collected ume are from urban and suburban environments where the plant is cultivated (for New Year's and other cultural reasons) and not the deep wild of Japan. It's not that you won't find Ume in the wild (just as species like Bradford Pear have plagued the east coast midwest of North America with its aggressive reproduction), or that Ume isn't field grown and sold due to it's cultural significance, but the old Ume we seem to appreciate in Kokufu are likely collected from urban or suburban environments and not true yamadori from the wild.

Your humble servant,
Dogwood

 

[SeanS]

I see a lot of fruit in these pictures. Doesn't that mean seeds?
I planted some Princess Persimmon seeds year before last and the all germinated.
Can "kaki " be grown from seed?

Only the female plants produce fruit, and it takes ages for seedlings to reach fruiting maturity. So there’s the risk that seedling grown persimmon could turn out to be fruitless male plants after a decade of growing

 

[NaoTK]

You the man! Nice trees. Anywhere near Eugene by chance?

I am closer to PDX

 

[NaoTK]

I see a lot of fruit in these pictures. Doesn't that mean seeds?
I planted some Princess Persimmon seeds year before last and the all germinated.
Can "kaki " be grown from seed?

Most of the cultivated varieties are seedless and grafted onto stock, you can see little proto-seeds in the core of seedless varieties. The wild types have large brown seeds which are easy to germinate, but those wild types are not common in the US.

 

[rockm]

Common Persimmon, or American Persimmon, (Diospyros virginiana) is a pretty common tree in the South and Southeast. They were commonly allowed to grow, or planted, in farmyards and pastures over the last couple of hundred years, as well as growing in open areas in the woods. If you went by an old farm in any southern state, you'd probably find one in the backyard or nearby. They are underused bonsai material, IMO even though they tend to be on the large side. Leaves are big, but not overly so. Fruit is smaller than the Japanese varieties. Off the tree, it is bitter. Local folklore has always said they're best after two frosts has softened them up and mellowed them out...

 

[Crazy Diamond]

Another cool Diospyros species its the Diospyros lotus usually used as rootstock for grafting D. kaki. They grow fast and have small fruits similar to D. rhombifolia

 

[Canada Bonsai]

Good sir,

Ume is not native Japan, but was introduced from China. Therefore, most collected ume are from urban and suburban environments where the plant is cultivated (for New Year's and other cultural reasons) and not the deep wild of Japan. It's not that you won't find Ume in the wild (just as species like Bradford Pear have plagued the east coast midwest of North America with its aggressive reproduction), or that Ume isn't field grown and sold due to it's cultural significance, but the old Ume we seem to appreciate in Kokufu are likely collected from urban or suburban environments and not true yamadori from the wild.

Your humble servant,
Dogwood

You seem to have overlooked the context of my response. @Shogun610 said:

someone said Ume are popular around New Years, and enthusiasts in Japan usually collect Ume’s from people front porch as they’re overgrown and old grown in a terracotta pot

And I said:

That is not how *most* Ume are developed in Japan.

To be clear: taking a New Years celebration tree off somebody's porch and turning it into a bonsai (say, over 5-6 years) is one thing, and they do not show up at Kokufu. People certainly do it though, I have seen it done and there are in fact club workshops devoted to this. Bonsai in Japan is extremely diverse just like it is anywhere else. Kokufu does not represent what 'most' people are doing. But when we talk about Japanese bonsai, we aren't normally referring to the casual hobbyists, but to the big shows that we are readily exposed to; so it was in that sense that I said 'most' i.e. 'most' Ume in Kokufu/Taikan/Sakufu, etc. are not taken off people porches the day after New Years and turned into bonsai.

However, what you're taking about @SilenceDogwood is taking New Years celebration tree or (or one planted for 'cultural reasons', as you say) and growing it in your garden for +30 years to only then turn into a bonsai, which is something totally different and which I referred to as yardadori and said was common: (of course, yardardori don't need to be ex-celebratory trees or trees of 'cultural' importance; they could have been planted for any number of reasons)

Pot training, field growing, and harvesting yamadori and yardadori are common for Ume.

Now on the topic of Yamadori: the importation of Ume from China to Japan goes back to at least the 7th century CE (1300 years ago). There are books, including Kokufu albums (even very early ones), that specify when Ume bonsai are originally true yamadori collected in the wild. I know a few vendors in Japan who actively collect Ume in the wild, who I have purchased collected trees from.

The topic of yamadori is itself nuanced, because people tend to think of big stumps. People do collect big trunks, but they also collect thin, literati-esque trunks which are of course also called yamadori by vendors in Japan.

 

[Shogun610]

You seem to have overlooked the context of my response. @Shogun610 said:



And I said:



To be clear: taking a New Years celebration tree off somebody's porch and turning it into a bonsai (say, over 5-6 years) is one thing, and they do not show up at Kokufu. People certainly do it though, I have seen it done and there are in fact club workshops devoted to this. Bonsai in Japan is extremely diverse just like it is anywhere else. Kokufu does not represent what 'most' people are doing. But when we talk about Japanese bonsai, we aren't normally referring to the casual hobbyists, but to the big shows that we are readily exposed to; so it was in that sense that I said 'most' i.e. 'most' Ume in Kokufu/Taikan/Sakufu, etc. are not taken off people porches the day after New Years and turned into bonsai.

However, what you're taking about @SilenceDogwood is taking New Years celebration tree or (or one planted for 'cultural reasons', as you say) and growing it in your garden for +30 years to only then turn into a bonsai, which is something totally different and which I referred to as yardadori and said was common: (of course, yardardori don't need to be ex-celebratory trees or trees of 'cultural' importance; they could have been planted for any number of reasons)



Now on the topic of Yamadori: the importation of Ume from China to Japan goes back to at least the 7th century CE (1300 years ago). There are books, including Kokufu albums (even very early ones), that specify when Ume bonsai are originally true yamadori collected in the wild. I know a few vendors in Japan who actively collect Ume in the wild, who I have purchased collected trees from.

The topic of yamadori is itself nuanced, because people tend to think of big stumps. People do collect big trunks, but they also collect thin, literati-esque trunks which are of course also called yamadori by vendors in Japan.

ok

 

[Pixar]

I just got some Japanese Persimmon seeds ( hoping to germinate etc... )

 

[Pixar]

I see a lot of fruit in these pictures. Doesn't that mean seeds?
I planted some Princess Persimmon seeds year before last and the all germinated.
Can "kaki " be grown from seed?

I just got some Japanese Persimmon seeds ( hoping to germinate etc...)

 

[Bonsai Nut]

I see a lot of fruit in these pictures. Doesn't that mean seeds?
I planted some Princess Persimmon seeds year before last and the all germinated.
Can "kaki " be grown from seed?

All persimmons are sexually diecious. Only the females fruit, but if you don't have any male trees in your orchard, they will be sterile. If you planted seeds and they germinated, it just means they came from a nursery that had male trees.

 

[Shogun610]

All persimmons are sexy

Fixed

 

[Shogun610]

Common Persimmon, or American Persimmon, (Diospyros virginiana) is a pretty common tree in the South and Southeast. They were commonly allowed to grow, or planted, in farmyards and pastures over the last couple of hundred years, as well as growing in open areas in the woods. If you went by an old farm in any southern state, you'd probably find one in the backyard or nearby. They are underused bonsai material, IMO even though they tend to be on the large side. Leaves are big, but not overly so. Fruit is smaller than the Japanese varieties. Off the tree, it is bitter. Local folklore has always said they're best after two frosts has softened them up and mellowed them out...

I wonder if there are any cow pasture ones out there… or would prob be pretty sick to air layer one

 

[Bonsai Nut]

I wonder if there are any cow pasture ones out there… or would prob be pretty sick to air layer one

American persimmons are extremely astringent. Great to look at, but inedible at least until their tannins start to break down and the fruit is almost rotten.

I was just at Costco today, and they were selling Fuyu persimmons in the produce department. No core, seedless, non-astringent... and they retail for $1 a fruit

 

[NaoTK]

I want everyone to know that in Japan persimmons have the same sort of status as fruit cake does in the united states. At least in the countryside where I lived, every other house has a persimmon tree and everyone gives each other persimmons all winter long and they are just always there in the background like fruit cake. Although nobody has ever given me a fruit cake.

 

[Pixar]

Although nobody has ever given me a fruit cake

I'd send you a fruit cake ,but the customs dept won't allow it out of the country (won't ever let us get out of Auckland )

 

[TinyArt]

nobody has ever given me a fruit cake

That may be just as well -- some fruitcake is dreaded/dreadful!

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

American persimmon is actually delightful to eat when fully ripe. KEY - FULLY RIPE. They turn orange a month or two before being ripe, so going by color will always lead to disaster. They are horrible when unripe, like eating vinyl. The "folk legend" is that they need a couple frosts to be fully ripe, and in zone 7, this is about right. In warmer areas they will ripe without a frost. If you look at photos, you see the calyx is retained on the fruit. It is 4 lobed. The American persimmon is fully ripe when this calyx twists off easily from the fruit. If there is any resistance, it is not ripe yet. Late September or early October is when they are ripe in southern Illinois or through Kentucky and Tennessee. When fully ripe, they have a sweet, spice fragrance. The fruit has begun to soften. Fruit hang on trees past ripening, they will dehydrate some, much like dates. I pick American persimmon off trees on my sister's property in November, Thanksgiving weekend. They are soft, wrinkled, the pulp has turned somewhat brown. The natural dehydration while hanging on the tree has effectively raised the sugar content high enough that they are free of mold or mildew. They are sweet with a date like flavor, with the plus of the spice flavors of the persimmon. The wild ones are pretty seedy, not a lot of flesh.

I hope you all give American persimmons a second chance. Remember, it colors orange MONTHS before it is really ripe. The calyx should twist off with no resistance, and the fruit should have begun to soften, only then is it ripe. The spicy fragrance and sweetness of a fully ripe American persimmon is superior to D. kaki in my opinion. Waiting for a frost is okay, and if still hanging after several freezes, into November, this over-ripe date like condition is actually pretty good, and quite a different experience than the just ripe persimmon.